GM Wippo Group#02 Neptunes Island

TK · Post by TK » Mon May 30, 2005 10:37 am

I didnt mention luck!!

What I meant was - its all about knowing the latest "tricks" based on the most recent update. Basically, find the imbalances in the game, and then exploit them.

It used to be about tactics and strategy. Now its just about knowing which tribe to be, and when. Why do you think n00bs like Donut and Xarfei are winning against veterans like Massi and Dameon? Experience? No. Tactical genius? No. Its because Donut and Xarfei know the latest "tricks of the trade", whereas the vets are not so up-to-date.

In the past, imbalances would occur, but they would be fixed as soon as they were found. Now we are lucky to get updates once a year, so the cheap VPs just keep flowing in to those people who are keen enough to stay up-to-date. When previous great players return to WOK5, they struggle to beat players who are barely out of the WOK kindergarten (WOK4

), because they dont have that knowledge.

All of this means that there are very few people out there who are actually capable of winning a game. This of course makes things very boring (and is the main reason why I am not planning on playing for a long time). My interest in WOK is fading fast. Every game is against the same players, using the same strategies, and everyone has the same allies as last time...

Thoughts?

TK · Post by TK » Mon May 30, 2005 10:43 am

Forgot to say...

Sorry to name names in the above post. I'm sure at least one of those four will reply with a complaint - "I'm not a n00b", or "I dont lose to n00bs".

Whatever - the point stands. Just change the names if it makes you feel better.

Xarfei · Post by **Xarfei** » Mon May 30, 2005 1:01 pm

I am a n00b!
How many games do you need to play to count as a pro/veteran? I've currently been in 4 WOK4 games (1 win, 1 still in progress, 1 abandoned, 1 lost), 2 WOK4 clan wars (1 win / 1 loss) and 6 WOK5 games (2 wins, 1 3rd place, 1 turn 2 Riped, 2 in progress).

I agree mostly with what TK said, I can see why the game is getting boring for him and I could see myself getting bored in the future.

There appear to be two main points that TK has raised:

1)Tribe bonuses can be easily exploited and useing the right tribes in combination with average strategy and tactics will beat anyone who just uses good tactics and strategy.

Solutions?
Well maybe just reduce the bonuses that the powerful tribes provide:
e.g.Mbakku only reduces wood cost by 15%, Femma only increases gold per POP at lower feeding levels, Peelow only gives you 25% interest and the Bank account maxes out at 5000, Hobgob only gets you 1%EFF for every trade slot filled etc.

2)Only a very limited number of people play WOK5, and even fewer are able to win (partially due to point 1).

Solution?
Recruit new players/reactivate old player? Change tribes + certain game variables? Run a few games for beginners or "old school players" only so that they can get used to playing WOK5 (again)?

Xarfei

Xarfei · Post by **Xarfei** » Mon May 30, 2005 2:02 pm

Or maybe assign the same random tribe to every player at the start of the game which then cannot be changed.

This could make WOK5 more interesting since players will have to play differently every time and this would stop players (ab)using certain powerful tribe combinations.

On the contrary, removing the ability to switch tribes removes a feature from the game, which some players consider to be an important part of what WOK5 is all about.

Xarfei

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:19 pm

My problem has always been. Wok 5 takes too long to play and it's quite complex with all the different posibilities that a player has. I think that's the biggest strength of wok 4. Although you can spend a lot of time on strategy and diplomacy the game it self is simple to understand and players don't feel overwhelmed when they first start playing. Sadly this is the case with WOK 5.

Post by **Duke** » Mon May 30, 2005 5:13 pm

I didnt read your post that well TK. You were saying something about luck, no?

Anyway, WOK5 is with or without the tribes vastly superior to WOK4 when it comes to tactics and challenges in the way the old chinese game of "Go" is to Chess.

No one can say that you dont need to be tactical (and diplomatic) in WOK4 but you need to be that "to the second power" in WOK5. I wasnt going to say anything but I feel I have to. There is no chance in hell that a new player would beat a good vet just by understanding how the tribes work. I am also willing to prove it.

I am at best a mediocer (sp?) WOK5 player and I am dead sure that if you faced me 1 on 1 against a new player (and I dont count Xarfei as one, check out his post) but a new player with max 1 WOK5 game experience. Then you can give me the crappiest tribe you can find and give him or her expertise guidance about when to switch tribes and to what (no other tips or hints though) I would win 99 times out of 100.

So there is no way a good WOK5 player would do worse. You are all free to have a different view on this but no matter what "facts" you will lay out here you will not make me change my mind on this. There are simply too many other factors. Workers AIM, Spells, the EFF, Harvest etc, etc. If you dont do those right there is no tribe in the book that will put it right for you.

I agree that some tribes might be too powerful however but isnt there a group working on this? Nick?

Oh, and I have been complaining for like 3 years now about facing the same players and having the same alliances. It has gotten to the point that I refused to ally with Brykovian/Egbert in Suburbian just because I always do.

Post by **Duke** » Mon May 30, 2005 5:16 pm

This has nothing to do with this but notice that I am now a "Warlord".

So dont mess with me!

Xarfei · Post by **Xarfei** » Mon May 30, 2005 5:54 pm

Duke wrote: No one can say that you dont need to be tactical (and diplomatic) in WOK4 but you need to be that "to the second power" in WOK5.

Really? I think diplomacy and tactics are more important in WOK4 since usually you get weaker after every fight and tactics are important to avoid getting your army group missiled to pieces.
In WOK5 you can get away with little diplomacy and lots of fighting since RIPing a player
can actually make you stronger and its easier to replace any resources lost during the fight. Furthermore, if you are at peace and run an economy well (e.g. using the right tribes), then when it comes to war you can just move your big kickass armygroup to the front and run straight at your enemy. Of course if that enemy has done equally well at building a big strong army, the player with the better tactic wins, but in many games that I have witnessed (mine + TK + Korexus) usually the opponents armies were a lot weaker and no complex tactics were required.
Example: TK in Fredos Game; TK has been at war with almost everyone since the start
and has managed to fight off everyone else so far (good tactics I guess, so maybe for WOK5 you either need diplomacy or tactics) and is still looking likely to win.

Duke wrote: I wasnt going to say anything but I feel I have to. There is no chance in hell that a new player would beat a good vet just by understanding how the tribes work. I am also willing to prove it.

I am at best a mediocer (sp?) WOK5 player and I am dead sure that if you faced me 1 on 1 against a new player (and I dont count Xarfei as one, check out his post) but a new player with max 1 WOK5 game experience. Then you can give me the crappiest tribe you can find and give him or her expertise guidance about when to switch tribes and to what (no other tips or hints though) I would win 99 times out of 100.

So there is no way a good WOK5 player would do worse. You are all free to have a different view on this but no matter what "facts" you will lay out here you will not make me change my mind on this. There are simply too many other factors. Workers AIM, Spells, the EFF, Harvest etc, etc. If you dont do those right there is no tribe in the book that will put it right for you.

You have a point there. Using certain tribes in combination of course can only really be done if you are at peace for at least 5-6 turns. If we put you in 1 on 1 right from the start, then of course tactics are very important.
Although, I think if we took Hanibal, gave him the Mbakku tribe plus loads of advice, and gave you the Voneva tribe (allowing you to try 4 spycodes per turn) then Hanibal would have a decent chance at beating you (or infact anyone).

Of course the points raised previously by me and TK are not all meant to be "black or white", i.e. just knowing what tribes to use isn't enough to win. You still need to be able to run your economy and have some tactical skill.

Xarfei

TK · Post by TK » Mon May 30, 2005 6:13 pm

Xarfei wrote:Of course the points raised previously by me and TK are not all meant to be "black or white", i.e. just knowing what tribes to use isn't enough to win. You still need to be able to run your economy and have some tactical skill.

I always forget to say this part.

Post by **Duke** » Mon May 30, 2005 6:42 pm

What was that TK? You always forget to mention the luck part? No, I belive you have brushed on the subject in every post so far.

Post by **Duke** » Mon May 30, 2005 6:46 pm

I think we are in a way both right Xarfei. No point in dragging it on forever. Instead lets discuss on how to improve it all.

Me and Hannibal are having some hush-hush plans on bringing new blood into WOK but I feel that we all need to post on threads and pull strings and make calls or whatever to make the community grow.

And most importantly, like any company that has attracted a new customer we need to make them stay. Otherwise there is no point, is it?

Xarfei · Post by **Xarfei** » Mon May 30, 2005 7:06 pm

Well said Duke.

I agree, we should identify the problems faced by thw WOK community and develop ideas to overcome them (I sound like a politicain).

Some problems:
- Attract more new players/ provide them with adequate help/ make them stay
- Reactivate experienced players
- Change WOK5 to make it more balanced (Al? Nick? TK? who is in charge?).

Xarfei

PS: Korexus, you finish your exams on thursday, so how about you create WOK5 online afterwards?

Post by **Dameon** » Mon May 30, 2005 9:39 pm

For what it's worth, TK has approached me on this, and my firmly held opinion is that WOK 5 is becoming unbalanced because Al simply isn't paying attention anymore. When WOK 4 was in development, he was always on top of things, fixing exploits, balancing things, updating the engine frequently, until it became what it is today. For WOK 5, he was like that a while as well, but after tribes was introduced it's gone to the crapper. Al also played a lot of WOK 4 in his day, but very little WOK 5, comparitively.

Yes, Duke, there was a group of us working on telling Al, as players, what was wrong with the tribes, but he's done nothing about it. We sent our suggestions, oh, at least four months ago now, and then again about a month back, but nothing has been done. I'm not trying to trash Al because I am sure he has a real life and he is busy, but the fact is, if the Creator is simply unable to update his game, imbalances WILL occur and cause it to be not so fun, especially for newer players.

I'm sure Al will just brush this notion of mine off, but I'd like for him to be able to give the ability to change the basic WOK 5 programming to somebody else who knows how to do it (not sure who might...Rune? Kor?). He could also delegate a council of like 5 vets who will have the final say on rules changes/etc, and stipulate that unless the agreement was unanimous it couldn't pass. Really, I think that WOK 5 players should have the final say on the rules, and I'd not object to Al approving of everything, but he just seems to have so little time lately......and it's no secret he doesn't really play any more. I have nothing but respect for Al as the Creator, but in re to Al the Maintainer, well, it's just not getting done anymore.

Post by **korexus** » Mon May 30, 2005 10:31 pm

Not me, I suck at VB.

Once E-WOK (WoK V online, I can't believe I only just thought of that...) is running maybe, it's almost a year since I started on Wookie though, so don't expect that to be any time soon!

Xarfei · Post by **Xarfei** » Tue May 31, 2005 3:48 pm

I am still looking for one more player for my group.

Anyone who is a mercenary or a member of BoV, DoW or Vulkings can still sign up.
This includes:
Validon
trewqh
Mullog
Lille
Dark Monk
Moridin
Queen Pea
Butcher
Skankerad
Ja'Jang
Father_of_Blood
Odessa
Yarosund
Melonus Maximus
ZED
Kake
Equus
Xechortariaste
Massielita
SmashFace
GoatHerder
Nestalawe
Lardmaster
Tomb Raider
Doverish
Hannibal
Temujin
Mr_Piggy
dr ozeric
ReyBucho

Post by **Duke** » Tue May 31, 2005 4:14 pm

C'mon Trewqh. Raw is in here as well, we could team up

We wont write anything about poo when you want to discuss strategies. At least not much. It is out of our system now.

Xarfei · Post by **Xarfei** » Tue May 31, 2005 4:52 pm

Trewqh would be very welcome!

Also, Beginners should feel free to sign up. I am sure the experienced players will be happy to sign naps with any beginer for a couple of turns so that the beginner can grap the five neutrals around him and get used to WOK5 without the danger of getting Riped by turn 3.
How about Xechortariaste, he has been quite active lately AND his name starts with "X", which is always pretty cool.

Or maybe Protput?

GM Wippo ("X"arfei)

Post by **Donut** » Tue May 31, 2005 10:36 pm

First... I object to being called a n00b

When I learned WOK5 the hardest thing for me to learn was the management of crop/harvesting. Once the crop hits 500 it's pretty hard to use it up with decent weather. Maybe a change to make it easier to feed early and harder to feed late.

Also, WOK4, whether everyone likes it or not, is the gateway to WOK5. I think it would be better for the community and WOK5 if the "WOK5 is superior to WOK4" attitude was removed to ever 3rd post made. I agree that it is more difficult and more enjoyable to play, but I will never bash WOK4 or its players.

Protput · Post by **Protput** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:36 am

I would love to give it a try, but I think it's too soon

Xarfei · Post by **Xarfei** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:53 am

It's entirely up to you. My group needs a 10th player and it doesn't look like any more of the established players want to join.

so, feel free to sign up.

GM Wippo