It is time....

[ThinKing]

...time to suggest a radical change for WOK.

Donut's gonna love me for this one. How about we have separate Hiscore pages for WOK4 and WOK5? That way, we could have a "WOK4 Champs", and a "WOK5 Champs" instead of "vice champs" which is a bit silly.

If someone is good enough (and plays enough) to get into both Champs (eg Raw), they deserve their chances.

If someone is only good at one game (eg Saladin ), or chooses to play only one game (eg Nick, TK), then they are guaranteed NOT to end up in the "wrong" champs game (which I think Bryk said happened to him this year, although I could be wrong there - please confirm Bryk).


Of course we cant split Kaohalla, so that could stay as a combined score. So should the clan score tables, of course.


What does everyone think?

[Brykovian]

then they are guaranteed NOT to end up in the "wrong" champs game (which I think Bryk said happened to him this year, although I could be wrong there - please confirm Bryk)

Well, I had the choice, of course. I've changed my mind a dozen times on whether I should've opted for the Vice Champs instead. Even finishing in 3rd, I was really taught a lesson by Eg on how to properly prepare for and conduct a WOK5 end-game. (Of course, the lesson you taught me, TK, didn't really depend on which game we were playing. )

In the end, I doubt I could've faired as well in the WOK4 Vice Champs game ... even though I'm much more comfortable with playing that.

Splitting the WOK4 & 5 VPs and having a champs game for each does make sense to me, though.

-Bryk

p.s. Congrats to Eggy for a game well-played. Definitely deserving the crown once again.

[Dameon]

While the idea is not bad on the surface, why bother? Anybody who qualifies for the WOK 5 Champs has a chance to play in the Vice Champs if they so wish. As for the other way around- is there actually anybody who has won more than 3 VPs from WOK 5 games during one scoring period and NOT made it into the Champs because a WOK 4 player had earned more? I just don't see this as necessary.

[ThinKing]

Anybody who qualifies for the WOK 5 Champs has a chance to play in the Vice Champs if they so wish.

Right, but they dont get chance to play in both, even if they have earned 5+ VPs in each.

As for the other way around- is there actually anybody who has won more than 3 VPs from WOK 5 games during one scoring period and NOT made it into the Champs because a WOK 4 player had earned more?

Yes, I think so - and there is certainly nothing stopping it from happening in the future. Some WOK4 players (like Sal) earn more VPs than most WOK5 players. It just depends what type of game runs more frequently over that scoring period.


I dont think there is any real disadvantage to my proposal. Even the extra workload is minimal in my eyes. I would volunteer to help if necessary, but I'm sure the Gatekeeper could handle the change!

[Undertaker]

That doesn't sound like that bad a idea. They really are two different games. I will second the motion if you want to bring it to a vote.

[Donut]

I would say bring it to a vote. I haven't been around long enough to see how VP's spread out over the course of a scoring period. I was under the impression that the reason WOK5 games were worth 3 VP's was an effort to even the score out between the games. I wouldn't be opposed to this change as a player... And as Gatekeeper I don't really see too much extra work and would definitely be willing to split the HiScore page up.

The only drawback I see is that there may be less players that will be allowed to participate in the Champs games. As is, the players that get the most VP's in a scoring period will most likely also be in the Clan Champs (Scholars). Also, if there are multiple people playing in multiple champs games, the number of people that have a chance at a champ title would be reduced. I don't see this as a bad thing as you have to assume the best players will compete for the title, but it may become a little frustrating for those who are experienced enough to win a couple of VP's, but not win enough to get to the championship.

Donut

[Raw]

Donut brings up a good point with the VP's for WOK 5 being 3 instead of 2. Would this be updated then also?

Either way, I like it the way it is now...if your good enough or play enough to get VP's then you have the option of which game you would like to play.

-Raw

[Dameon]

Obviously, it takes more skill to win a WOK 5 game than a WOK 4 game. There are many more factors involved, and they generally take longer to play out. That is why they are 3 VPs, and changing that would be a horrible idea.

As for this new idea, I don't like allowing a player to be in more than one Champs game. I think including 20 different players in the games is a good idea. I like to give as many people a shot at a title as possible. Just because somebody had more WOK 4 VPs or more WOK 5 VPs doesn't necessarily mean they are better, simply that they played in more games often. The way the system is now, players who are good but don't play in many games still get into at least one Champs game- if we change to this new model, we are going to be weighting it even more towards players who have more free time.

[Saladin]

Nice one TK.

Anyway, wok 5 does take more time and effort to play well than wok 4 so i've got no problem with that getting more vps for a win.

I also believe that if a player gets enough vps to be both in the wok 4 and wok 5 champs they should be allowed in both. Just like in the Olympics...if you qualify for two different disciplines you get to play in both.

For the odd chance that there won't be 9 players getting vps in either wok 4 or wok 5, why not use the ratings system to get the remaining spot filled.

[ThinKing]

I was under the impression that the reason WOK5 games were worth 3 VP's was an effort to even the score out between the games.

Yes, and this would remain in place so that Kaohalla continues to make good sense.


(just to clarify)

[korexus]

There is a large advantage to this system which noone has yet pointed out. It allows us to integrate WoK Species (and any other future games) more easily. The current set up works well enough, but I can already hear the cries of protest which will emerge, the first time a player gets VPs towards highscore because they won a game of Species. With WoK 6 and Modern Warfare constantly looming on the horizon, it would be worth sorting this out soon before life gets messy.

As things stand we'll be adding VPs for all sorts of games into the same score list and using it to setermine who should play a championship in which game would be come very arbitrary. Splitting them out would reduce the hassel by quite a lot. - All we would have to decide when introducing a new game would be how many points it should contribute to kaohalla.

On the other hand, no one has yet mentioned the complication of the clan champs. Would we also track seperate VPs for them and then fight out a WoK 4 Clan Champs and a WoK 5 Clan Champs and possibly a WoK X, Y and Z Clan Champs as well?

What we gain is ease of use. What we lose is a clear statement of who is the "best". The question is, do we think that the trade of is worth it?


korexus.

[Saladin]

What we gain is ease of use. What we lose is a clear statement of who is the "best".

Well as wok 4 and 5 are so different (not to mention any future wok games), you cannot say that the person who's the best at wok 5 is the best at wok 4 as well.

I mean Eg is undoubtly the best WOK 5 player around, but the same can not be said for wok 4, where the number of good players is much larger.

[Hannibal]

For what it's worth, I agree with TK and Saladin. We should have separate scores and lists (and champs) for WOK4, WOK5 etc. By all means always have a TOTAL column that adds across, but always have the totals for the separate games......in fact, the totals for the separate games should be primary, and the addition across a matter of interest.

Everyone says how different the 2 games are (Species even more so), and that being keen on, or good at, one, is not the same as being keen on or good at the other. So it's a bit like, say, chess and backgammon. You can give points for both and add them together, but why would you?? Best if you gave points and rankings for chess, and points and rankings for backgammon.......then you can "also" have a total column that puts the two together for who comes out on top across both, but not treat them as merely variations of the same game. Of course some people will be good at both (good games players tend to be good across games), but if you ONLY tabulate the combined score, you don't do justice to the "best" chess player or "best" backgammon player.

And TK's original post already answers Kor's question, I think: you have Champs for each (Raw etc. in both!), and Clan Champs in each. If you want more clans involved, simple: you have a play-off between 2nd and 3rd for the right to take on the leading clan......

But the main point is : Treat WOK4 and WOK5 separately, as separately as chess and backgammon, with different scoring lists and champs for each.

[Dameon]

Well, I suppose I can see the logic of separating the WOK 4 and WOK 5 individual HiScores, and then having WOK 4 and WOK 5 Champs games. Korexus also makes a good point, in that if we start awarding VPs for Species/WOK 6/WOK MW it's going to start to be even more of an issue. WOK 4 and 5 incorporate the same elements at a basic level, but future incarnations of WOK may not.

But, as for the Clan Champs, I am in favor of keeping that as a combined phenomenom. The idea of an extended clan playoffs was discussed at one point, however, it was dismissed simply because it would be too time consuming. Separating the WOK 4 and 5 HiScores won't really be any more time consuming for anybody, but if you start adding games to the end of the season then all we are doing is taking away from the total of normal games overall, since GMs can only run so many. This could especially be true on down the line, if we want to start adding Clan Champs for every single incarnation of the WOK universe. Yes, it is possible to remove the playoff and just have the clan with the most VPs be crowned the clan champ of a particular game, however, the entire idea behind the clan champs is to see which clans work best together as an actual CLAN, not which ones have the top 2-3 players.

In short, I support a vote bringing up the idea of splitting WOK 4 and WOK 5 HiScores, if only because as Korexus points out it will make things smipler in the future when we add new games to the WOK universe. But, I am opposed to splitting up the clan score in any way.

[gm_al]

Overall this is a sound suggestion it seems. TK should formulate it well and bring it to some WSC vote pronto.

It just means to have a few more tables: WOK4 VPs / WOK5 VPs / WOK SP VPs / ... / sum of VPs

Of course Clan scoring is just that - its a sum of ALL achievements in ALL types of WOK games from your Clan members, so no need to split that in any way.

[GoatHerder]

Hello all,

I think it's getting to the time when we can split them into 2 Champs games, or 3 or 4 or more when Species etc. come on board.

As for Clan Champs, I think at this stage we don't have enough players and enough clans consistently scroing points to worry about separate clan champs for all the different disciplines.

Playing clan champs (or any champs game for that matter) takes a lot of time away from actual VP-scoring games, so that it makes it more difficult for these players to get enough VPs to get into the following year champs games. This is especially the case for those who play only 3 or 4 games a year (no worries to Raw though )

As for WOK_SP, whether VPs should contribute to the Clan Champs is another question, and how many VPs for each game. We will need need some discussion on that when beta testing is finished, so we can gauge it against the existing games.

[ThinKing]

TK should formulate it well and bring it to some WSC vote pronto.

Al, I am not on the "Supreme" Council. Feel free to propose it yourself if you are.

[gm_al]

TK, post some formulation here plz and Ill see to submit it to the WSC asap.

Looking forward to get this done soon.

[Donut]

Is there any updates on this. Are we for sure going to split the HiScore list? I'd like to know before it goes into effect so that I can make the appropriate pages.

Donut

[korexus]

OK, at the risk of TK claiming that I'm 'stealing his idea' again, I'll try and formulate this myself.

VPs scored for WoK 4, WoK 5 and any future WoK games will be treacked in seperate high score tables.

Clan VPs and VPs for Kaohalla will still be tracked in only one table each.

There will be a champs for the top 10 (9 highest scoring + returning champ) players in each game. Players can play in as many or as few champs games as they qualify for.

The two clans with the highest VP totals across the games will fight out for the clan champion title in a game of the highest scoring clan's choosing.

Note, are we going to allow clan champs games to be played in WoK Species if the highest scoring clan so chooses? (That should start up the flames again...)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apart from that final note, I think that is pretty much what TK is driving at.
Donut, it's probably easier for you if you start tracking the VPs seperately now. It's easy enough to combine them again if the motion doesn't get through the WSC, but it could be a pain to work out everyone's scores later on...

korexus.