scoring -the new way

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:22 pm

Trewqh wrote:
Saladin wrote:Personally i don't see such a problem with people going quit in these circumstances. That's why somebody proposed a 'surrender' option. That way a player like for instance Tigress in the raj game who's down to 1 empty province has the chance to surrender which has two big benefits.

1. No extra unnecessary quit.
2. The other players don't have to wait till the deadline for a turn to run because the player that is quiting is not sending in orders and not pushing the 'ready for the next turn button'.
I agree. A surrender option would solve those problems.

Chris?

Look, a real life miracle Trewqh and Saladin AGREE on something. Someone note the date, this will go down in Kaomarian history.

Post by **trewqh** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:27 pm

I don't let my personal feelings towards somebody prevent me from agreeing when I see someone's right.

Do expect me to bash Sal as soon as I see any bs coming from him, though.

Calidus · Post by **Calidus** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:58 pm

Vortan wrote: @ Calidus. I know the system may seem imperfect but it is still better for ALL participants this way. As the newbees and frequent 'also rans' can battle for the lesser rewards. We cant all be winners but we still took part and allowed someone to win.

This is precisely what's wrong with the world. Boo Friggin Hoo. I am so sick and tired of hearing how everyone is owed something that they haven't earned. Do you hear me whining because Raw or Egbert or Smashy have more VPs? Hell no. They EARNED them. You want something for your efforts, go out and win a dangnabbit game. THEN you have something to show for your efforts, it's called victory points. To hell with you if you lose. You don't get Jack.

Post by **trewqh** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:09 pm

The thing is to motivate players who don't play as well so that we have someone to play against.

Weren't you one of the players who complained at some point that you see the same faces all the time in the games you're in?

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:26 pm

And this is what you get for trying to hold an informed, intelligent debate with a bitter, twisted individual who feels aggreived because I decided to leave his clan. You clearly haven't got over the fact that the majority decided to give the new system a go to provide motivation for newer and less experienced players who were not getting support from others with experience.

Just because some of your old buddies are back does not give you the right to start behaving like an arrogant pratt. If you have nothing intelligent to say to me dont say anything at all. It is clear you have no respect for me as a person and thus I shall have none for you.

You want to discuss like an adult fine. talk dont abuse. No need for it.

Brykovian · Post by **Brykovian** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:41 pm

Vortan ...

I can assure you that Calidus has stated a rather consistent opinion on this topic for years. It seems to me that it has absolutely nothing to do with you personally. You may not agree with his opinion, or what you would regard as his lack of tact ... but he did was not attacking you, he was attacking the idea of needing a more complicated scoring system. So I do not see the need for you to make it a personal grudge.

That sort of thing should just be handled on the battlefield.

With that said, I don't see a reason to treat QUITs so harshly. It's part of the game and adds an extra tension when you need to figure out if someone is actually going to go M-3 or not. Backing the QUITs up to their last active turn, and awarding those points seems like a very good solution to me.

-Bryk

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:49 pm

If I have misunderstood Calidus then I apologise unreservedly. Perhaps I am guilty of reading between the lines and coming to teh wrong conclusion. It wouldn't be the first time.

Post by **korexus** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:25 pm

Why do people keep getting so excited about a surrender option? It would just be M-3 by another name, as you'd have no way of enforcing when people pressed it. All that would happen is that the people who never show up would still go M-3 (good thing) and the people with no 'net access would still go M-3 (bad thing).

Now a 'count me as sending blank orders' button on the other hand, I can see the use for. That's what players used to do in the old days. I can quite see why a person wouldn't want to keep logging into the site just to enter orders for a game in which they have one empty province...

Oh, and there is at least on case of a player trying to be the 5th QUIT in order to reduce the VPs. I tried it against Fredo a couple of years back. We were the only two left in a game with 4 QUITs, he was far stronger than me but I asked for a share on the basis that he'd get 1 VP if I quit or if we split the game. He quite rightly refused and took me out in three turns anyway, but it was worth a shot. I think I even spawned a vote about whether players should be allowed to use that sort of tactic.

korexus.

Post by **trewqh** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:32 pm

Can't the 'count me as sending zero orders for the rest of the game' button be simply called a surrender button?

I guess you meant that someone sending in zero orders will not count as RIPped on the turn that he or she presses the button but on the turn that he or she is actually taken out by another player. That would mean that a player that presses that button could survive till the end game and get points for the 3rd place. Which is cool if you ask me.

Zero orders and voting 'for' on any called end-game vote, right?

Post by **korexus** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:38 pm

Pretty much. It means your final position is more likely to reflect how bothered other players are about taking you out than your actual skill, but I always thought this new scoring system was a silly idea.

We'd have to make a decision on whether it was publically known that you'd pressed the button and whether you could change your mind and enter order again afterwards.

Chris.

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:49 pm

I would say NO to that one kor. The Germans didnt get the chance to say 'oh hold on a minute. Now your troops are going away we have changed our minds. Once its pressed it is pressed.

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:13 pm

korexus wrote:Now a 'count me as sending blank orders' button on the other hand, I can see the use for.

Hmm...yes that might even be better. This could also be used by people who will be away on holiday and such.

Post by **korexus** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:30 pm

Vortan wrote:I would say NO to that one kor. The Germans didnt get the chance to say 'oh hold on a minute. Now your troops are going away we have changed our minds. Once its pressed it is pressed.

Yes, but the Germans voted for the other side to win. They didn't just stop sending in orders. (I'm not sure that reducing WWII to WoK terms will work, but that's the general idea).

A player can of course keep logging in and sending blank orders, and that person would always be able to do something later on. We're just allowing the blank orders stage to be a bit easier.

Another question. Does someone who has chosen blank orders still get turn notifications? See the game in the Lobby? Don't tell me that you want that to be player choice. I know that it's the best solution, but it means work for me!

Chris.

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:37 pm

korexus wrote:Another question. Does someone who has chosen blank orders still get turn notifications? See the game in the Lobby? Don't tell me that you want that to be player choice. I know that it's the best solution, but it means work for me!

Yes, he's still in the game so everything stays the same. If he wants out of the game he can go m-3 or nicely ask somebody to rip him.

Post by **korexus** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:38 pm

Killed the posts which had nothing to do with the thread. Both players concerned agreed with me on this. Egbert can complain all he likes, this wasn't even a good flamer. If you found this entertainng, Eg. You need to get out of that office and go searching for Inca treasure again or something...

Chris.

Post by **Egbert** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:36 am

korexus wrote:If I delete the above posts is anyone going to go nuts on a free speach campaign? Personally, I think both parties want to keep the boards friendly and that no one else really cares, but I'd hate to be accused of censorship. (Again.)

Chris.

I object.

Post by **Hannibal** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:22 am

I object to Egbert having no option but to object. Work that one out

Han

Calidus · Post by **Calidus** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:48 am

Hannibal wrote:I object to Egbert having no option but to object. Work that one out

Han

Holy Cow! Hanibabble was able to make a post that isn't 47 paragraphs long! What IS this world coming too???

Post by **Hannibal** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:49 am

Vortan wrote:And this is what you get for trying to hold an informed, intelligent debate with a bitter, twisted individual who feels aggreived because I decided to leave his clan. You clearly haven't got over the fact that the majority decided to give the new system a go to provide motivation for newer and less experienced players who were not getting support from others with experience.

Just because some of your old buddies are back does not give you the right to start behaving like an arrogant pratt. If you have nothing intelligent to say to me dont say anything at all. It is clear you have no respect for me as a person and thus I shall have none for you.

You want to discuss like an adult fine. talk dont abuse. No need for it.

Hey, my friend Vortan, at the risk of attracting your ire, PLEASE TONE IT DOWN ? For the good of the community?

Yes to your preferring an informed intelligent debate. No to you completing the sentence with "with a bitter, twisted individual who feels aggrieved because I decided to leave his clan", and no to: " It is clear you have no respect for me as a person and thus I shall have none for you.". Calidus's stuff was general, not personal. You took it as personal and MADE it personal. Not good for the site, I have to say.

Vortan, I know you blow hot and cold, and then retract when you see you are wrong; but your first reactions are TOO personal/offensive, really, even if you retract later. So pls don't post when you are in a pained or furious mood; wait till you are more relaxed, and post in a more measured fashion? For the good of the site, and the sanity of those you disagree with? Somebody had to say it. If you're in one of your good moods, you'll agree; if you are in one of your bad moods, you'll attack me forever. But it had to be said: Vortan: pls tone it down.

Han

Post by **Hannibal** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:05 pm

Calidus wrote:
Hannibal wrote:I object to Egbert having no option but to object. Work that one out

Han

Holy Cow! Hanibabble was able to make a post that isn't 47 paragraphs long! What IS this world coming too???

And this is purely for fun, nothing aggressive.

Cal, the long posts always made a lot of sense. They tended to sort the sheep from the goats - those who followed the argument, and those who just saw and commented on the length...

So I instituted a new over-ride. I called it "Pearls before Swircle-of Swine" [I'm just playing with words - DON'T take it seriously for c'sakes!]

All the long, "hard-to-read" posts are now filtered and don't appear in front of any Swirkle-of-Nine. Only everybody else sees them. Good solution! And hey, I'm only KIDDING, OK?

for God's sake, pls take it as a joking response!

Han