THe return of the WSC

[trewqh]

I'm sorry if I was unclear, but I feel you twisted my words to your advantage once again, Sal.

Anyway that's all i'm going to say about this.

I'm done as well. I'm no Don Quixote.

[Duke]

Ok. Time for me to set my foot down.

(Most oldtimers are rolling around laughing now)

Anyway, for those of you who I havent been in contact with yet (Vortan for example) I am one of the oldtimers and there are a few things I would like to add to this.

Back in like 2001....HEY dont fall asleep here!.....as I said, back in 2001 and the following year or two the community was bustling with activity. A lot of it came from what we called "flamers" and that was basically very heated debates in the forum that most of the time went ugly and personal. But we were mostly kids and we had a blast. I read this entire thread and all I could see was people tip-tapping about afraid of stepping on eachothers toes.

If anyone is intrested in my two cents, here they are:

* Al is the creator. He will in my opinion always have a supreme veto no matter what we all say. Heck, he started this game as an old school pbm and that is play by snailmail for those who doesnt know.

* You need the WSC. Cant anyone see the irony of having this enormous discussion about the problem of decisions being made???

* You cannot have a system of one voice - one vote. If we had that during the Irish invasion in 2005 then those numbheads would have turned this into a circus in notime. Or the Appleton posse before them *looks at Tbert* I am not saying that oldtimers should have more votepower but we should have dependable people making votes. We have had incidents with one person playing with different alias *looks a Trewqh* and if someone gets the idea that he could play different alias at the same time then he could act as....well I dont know...an entire family from Yorkshire even *dramatic churchmusic and everyone gasps for air*

Nevermind me. I wont be as active here as I used to and I am about to disappear for another 5-6 weeks over the summer but someone still listens a little bit to me I hope......Calidus?....eeh Aussie?....well guess not then

[Lardmaster]

I've missed you Duke

I can (for once) actually see everyones point of view here and I think Sals vote thread just about covers it apart from the suspension of the WSC, which I can also see a point to.

I will go with whatever the majority say but I will just make 2 quick points.

1) regardless of whether Al created WOK or not, as far as he is concerned the game can die. TTherefore he (IMO) no longer has any rights over this whatsoever.

2) Mercanary is NOT a clan therefore does not deserve 2 spots on the WSC.

[Duke]

Al is the creator. nuff said.

And since when do we listen to brits with dodgy knees anyway??

[Vortan]

Alright that does it - I dont give a stuff just how long you have been playing or in fact how many of these guys would lay down their lives for you. Just who the hell do you think you are. All you know about me is that I am from Yorkshire and you DARE to assume I am a cheat and a liar.

There is nothing I hate more than a condecending arrogant b****** who thinks he knows it all. You know nothing, except perhaps how to p*** off new players who are pottering along quite happily minding their collective business.

I don't hear you slagging off the Barnes clan (3 of) so don't start on me and mine.

[trewqh]

V? Are you sure you're not overreacting?

This was hypothetical.

[TheDragon]

Hey you got there before me. enough said on our part I think, except two computers, one house and the fact we can't all be logged in at the same time, impossible I think.

[Vortan]

You show me where in his statement he even mentioned the word hyperthetical Trewqh and I will apologise. Failing that then Duke is another who has forgotten that when you do not know people you need to take care of what exactly you say when typing. I DIDN'T SEE THE HUMOUR ANYWHERE.

[TBert]

DAMAGE CONTROL

Alright. Whoa now. WHOA NOW.

Duke... love ya man, but I didn't think your momentary return would herald this kind of conflict. People that don't know you might think you're saying everything you're saying seriously, instead of what I hope is partially in jest, or just theory.

To the Lowe family... take everything old Dukie here is saying with a grain of salt. He's put as much work into the game as alot of us old-timers, but that tends to entrench things in our brains. It's human instinct to defend things we've worked for and to resist change. Unfortunately, sometimes it comes across as hostility, and usually it isn't meant to.

[korexus]

Ok, I've tried to stay out of this, but here goes.


Firstly, Vortan, TheDragon, Dragonette: Duke is no accusing you of cheating here, he's merely pointing out that the potential exists for players to create multiple accounts and abuse a one player one vote system. He's trying to use humour to make his point, but unfortunately has a very strange sense of humour. (He's a floorwaxing-Boss'sRAMstealing-BadPlumbing-DIY fetishest.) Fortunately, he points the sense of humour at himself as often as anyone else, so after a while you grow to like him...

Secondly, do we actually need a WSC? In my opinion, no. The WSC is just a way of hiding the fact that we suck at making decisions, it doesn't make us any better at it. If we set up a mailing list, the people on it will be flooded with mails for about a month, then get nothing. The people not on it will feel left out.

If you like, I can set up a forum for discussing these things. (Instead of having suggestions mixed up with bug reports.) Personally, I think it's important for everyone to be allowed their say, which the old mailing system did not allow. As for the one member one vote thing, I'm afraid Duke is right. A lot of people come along with something they think is a great idea, they may even convince other people that it's a great idea but that doesn't mean it is one. The final decision has to be made by people who know what is going on. (This is not having a go at new players, even established players make stupid suggestions (TurnMax anyone??) But hopefully, having a small number of experienced players will help catch those mistakes.)

Al may be gone, but he still pays for our domain name and pops his head in when he can. I know I've pretty much taken the space of his Oversized Austrian Shoes, but I certainly see myself as just keeping them warm...

Finally (I've rambled too long) I'd like you all to consider that this thread only came into being because I said on another post that I wouldn't implement a suggestion of Sal's just because he wanted it that way. We do reach decisions already and they are acted upon (new levelling option is being tried in my game. Yondallus has been made a GM so he can try out the new spy options, the Lobby now records RIP turns so we can work on the new scoring formula). It ain't actually broke, people...


Probably missed something important, but never mind.

Chris.

[Lardmaster]

Vortan. Chill. Out. Dude.

Suggest you read some Tom Holt so you can tell when someone is being amusing....... You take things much to much to heart mate.

[Vortan]

Okay TB, kor and of course Duke.

I will take the word of the first two as I feel I know them, at least a whole lot more than I know Duke. I am guilty at times of taking things too seriously and because you cant see smiles and silly grins I look for emoticons representing these things. If they are not there then its a serious remark. I will however give Duke the benefit of the doubt here. As long, of course, as he is a little more careful in future.

In the spirit of harmony - DUKE I over-reacted and apologise unreservedly. I shall try not to let it happen again.

[trewqh]

(TurnMax anyone??)

Good point!

For the ones who don't know what TurnMax is, here is a link to the WSC vote.

The majority on the WSC thought it was a good idea. As it turned out afterwards... nobody used it. Practice proved an arbitrary decision pointless.

[TBert]

If you like, I can set up a forum for discussing these things. (Instead of having suggestions mixed up with bug reports.)

I may have just had a flash.

Why not make a new forum and call it 'Wok Council'. Every time there's a proposal for anything, the person goes to the WOK Council forum, and makes a thread entitled "Proposal #XX : Blah Blah." That topic is then discussed, with special effort to keeping the thread on-topic, until the discussion peters down. Discussion could be a minimum of a week with a maximum of 2 weeks or a month. An X-Game could be run, with the proposal implemented, if it is deemed necessary by the people in the thread. After that, another thread is created entitled "Vote for Proposal #XX." The vote has to be a clear concise proposal, not several options. A week is given for votes, and then the proposal either passes or fails by a 2/3 majority. If the proposal does not pass, it can still be discussed, but cannot be voted on again for 3 months.

That way everything is transparent, everyone can participate in the discussion and vote, but there is still a need for consensus. There are still issues that Duke brought up that would have to be solved (a big crowd of new people joining with the hostile intent of changing and messing up the game, the problem of one person registering multiple accounts) but those can be remedied with clauses. If there's a way to see who actually voted, we can discount the players who are known to be just created. And there can be some kind of veto power for the vets and developers, but it would have to have limitations and require a near-unanimous vote, to stop the 'large group of newbs with hostile intent.' I'm bolding the hostile intent to make it clear that I'm not talking about anybody that's currently playing or participating in this discussion.

I know Sal already put up a vote for this, but I don't think the discussion is quite finished. Mayhaps it should be taken down and the options reconsidered.

[Saladin]

I agree with Korexus that it would be better to have a separate forum part for discussing things and not a WSC mailinglist. I feel that everybody should be able to participate in discussions even if only elected clan representatives wil decide the final vote.

[korexus]

I like TBert's idea. Especially the 2/3 majority thing. As things stand, WoK does work, although it can of course be improved. If two thirds of the active players want something then it's probably worth doing. I can't see malicious people abusing this system. Apart from anything else, I have an IP trace on you guys.

If a 2/3 majority was needed, I would not be so worried about the people voting being experienced players, so long as everyone had time to make their points before the vote - another good idea, TBert! I never liked the vote as soon as the thread appears set up. It makes people vote without thinking...

Even so, we have a rich variety of experience here, from players who have been around for millenia, to people who actually make money out of game design, to poor schmucks who get to type all the code. We'd be stupid not to take all these people's ideas into account.


Chris.

[Brykovian]

I don't really have anything to say about the actual topic at hand -- I'm happy to just roll with the Kaomarian flow.

But I am curious about this: How did I get rolled-in with the real development team?

-Bryk

[Vortan]

Its his fault Bryk

[Mullog]

Woah! Here I log on to check whats going on in slow-wok-town and what do I find? A fight! Yay! That means the community is alive and everything is well! Isn't that wonderful news?

Now. About the wsc and its return. It's my impression that the council was abandoned 1.5 years ago. I still get the wsc reminder emails every now and then, but the last interesting email there was from Nick in December 2005... So in my opinion the wsc was abandoned. And I think it should stay abandoned for a while yet. Our community is still small (although it is growing) and with two members from each clan we end up with half the active players anyway, so why leave the other half out?

I agree with the suggestions that we setup a forum section where everyone can comment and then we can reconsider reviving the wsc when (if) the wok community grows large enough.

Oh. By the way. Hi folks.

[korexus]

You offered to make a game for us. Oh and you persistently made constructive comments, without starting any flamers. If you're going to be useful, inteligent *and* reasonable of course you're going to get lumbered with the responsibility!