The Order of Valn Ohtar

Post by **Dameon** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:41 pm

The time has come for the falcon to arise from the ashes once again. Four brave warriors now stand together in a new brotherhood, one that will train a host of noble warriors and strike fear into the hearts of the unjust. With the power of the Stone and the skills we have honed on the battlefield we shall take Kaomaris by storm. Dameon. Strider. Bjorn. Raven. We are the Order of Valn Ohtar.

http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/kaomaris/V ... /home.html

En garde!

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:59 pm

Congratulations on the new clan Dameon!

The Order of Valn Ohtar will certainly have a big impact on wok with four such experienced players!

Looking forward to fighting along side the officers of The Order of Valn Ohtar!

Ecrivian · Post by **Ecrivian** » Sat Aug 02, 2003 6:54 pm

Congrats, and good [shadow=darkred][glow=red] LUCK [/glow][/shadow]not that you'll really need it or anything.....

Post by **gm_al** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 12:30 am

Does this mean the end of the once brave Dark Stone Clan ?

And why was Ar-Sereg not resurrected from the grave ?

Post by **Dameon** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 12:39 am

Raven has told me that Dark Stone is folding, yes, Al. And Valn Ohtar IS Ar-Sereg reborn, just under a different banner and with a different charter. I think there were certainly enough changes in the basic structure of the clan to justify the name change, so there you have it.

Bjorn · Post by **Bjorn** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 1:42 am

Let me put on my gatekeeper hat here for a second.

From what Dameaon has told me, I am going to rename Ar-Sereg in Clan Kaohalla as Valn Ohtar and reactivate it. Since Dark Stone now has no clan head (and the only active member that I can think of is Gorzag), I am going to list it as disbanded. Valn Ohtar will take its place in the Clan League standings. With only one month left until the end of this scoring period I don't believe that makes any difference.

If I don't hear any howls of protest in 48 hours, I will make the change on Monday night.

Undertaker · Post by **Undertaker** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:42 pm

Bjorn wrote:Let me put on my gatekeeper hat here for a second.

From what Dameaon has told me, I am going to rename Ar-Sereg in Clan Kaohalla as Valn Ohtar and reactivate it.

So Dameon would rather change part of WOK history, than just start over with a clean slate?

I don't know Nick, but hey, it's your clan.

Post by **Dameon** » Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:20 pm

Wow, what hypocrisy. I cannot believe you just said that. If you will recall, Taker, you also left "part of WOK history" to "start over with a clean slate" as well when you helped form TFF. Now, I don't hold that against you really, because EVERYBODY has done it. Consider this, a grand total of zero of the founding five clans are still active. Well, Thuggee, I guess, if you can consider that active- I consider it to be denial. Part of WOK is clearly change- tons of players have chosen to abandon the founding clans to form their own ones, yourself included, and you give ME flak because I chose to change a name? Please. Yes, I'd rather modify WOK history than see AS become a dead clan and start with a brand new slate- not the path that most have chosen, but I respect the roots of WOK as best I can even when others choose not to.

Goat Herder · Post by **Goat Herder** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:36 am

Dameon wrote:Consider this, a grand total of zero of the founding five clans are still active.

Very Sad!!!

I had always thought of Scholars as one of the founding clans. TK-where were you when the big bang

occurred?

Who were the founders then

? 1. Dark Stone, 2. AS, 3. Thuggee, but who else? ...the Posse? Sword of Vengeance? Royals? or have I missed someone?

Considering Thuggee & BoT are struggling at the moment and can hardly considered active

, that would make the Brotherhood the third oldest clan

, after Scholars & CoN. I wonder---can the Thuggee & BoT survive and prosper to regain their honour

, as Ar Sereg & Dark Stone have not been able to do

.

Post by **ThinKing** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 10:09 am

The Scholars appeared about 2 weeks after the "founding" clans, if memory serves. I took the time to assemble a good group of players who would help create a clan that would stick around - not mutiny.

I remember those days. Me, Underdog, Eg, Coolant - what a line-up. Nowadays its just Eg, Raw, Bryk.... you know, just a bunch of newbies.

TK

Post by **Egbert** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:02 pm

gm_al wrote:Does this mean the end of the once brave Dark Stone Clan ? And why was Ar-Sereg not resurrected from the grave ?

Dameon wrote:Consider this, a grand total of zero of the founding five clans are still active. Well, Thuggee, I guess, if you can consider that active- I consider it to be denial. Part of WOK is clearly change- tons of players have chosen to abandon the founding clans to form their own ones...

(Egbert shakes his head)

It is a darn shame that there is no loyalty in WOK. What would professional sports be like if teams folded and new ones created every year? There would be no loyalty from fans, certainly. There would probably very little loyalty from the players themselves as well, since the name of the team doesn't mean anything anymore.

Don't players want to have a sense of history --- that they are part of something bigger than just the "current member roster"?

Starting "The Great Clan of Such-and-Such" is a bunch of hogwash --- you can't start a Great Clan. A great clan develops over time. The youngsters among us probably cannot fully appreciate what I am saying. But the 30 and older crowd should be able to see what I am getting at.

I am going to throw out an idea, to see if it flies. It would be a set of rules designed to preserve the integrity of the clan system, which is a unique part of WOK:

1. Once a player joins a clan, he must remain a member of that clan for at least 1 year.

2. There would be a limit of 10 clans that could be in existence at any one time, which can be increased by the WSC if there is a sudden influx of players.

3. New clans cannot be started until the old clans (with their clan names) are resurrected, by any player wishing to start a new clan. If a player wishes to start a new clan, he or she must first get permission from the WSC.

This probably won't go anywhere, but I feel that I have to attempt it. With no rules in place, players could play clan merry-go-round, making the clan system worthless.

Post by **gm_al** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:18 pm

Not bad, Eg, not bad. Got some points there.

Although the life and death of a Clan is a natural process. I wouldnt change that.

What I would like to see instead of the Kaos/Mare split we currently have is a first/second division thing (ie. with 5 clans in each). New Clans start in 2nd division of course. At the end of the period, one moves up and one goes down. The score leader of 1st Division is the Clan winner, final match we had until now is cancelled. Gives us room to run an additional game for all Players too.

Here some recap of what I like and some new idea:

1. Once a player joins a clan, he must remain a member of that clan for at least 1 year.

2. At the end of current period, Clans are split into two divisons (#1 and #2) according to points. #1 starts with a fixed number of eight (maybe ten, maybe 6) Clans in it

3. From then on: winner of #1 is Clan champion. Lowest score of #1 goes into #2, best score of #2 moves up to #1.

4. New Clans always start in #2. The number of Clans in #1 is not changed, even if new Clans are added to #2.

5. Clans must prove that they are active at the start of a new period. The WSC (or someone else) will send a mail to all Clan members to check if they still are around, and then decide on the status of every Clan. Also, all Clan Heads are required to keep track of how many games each of its members has played in the last TWO periods. It is required that each member plays at least one (two ?) game(s) per year to be considered active.

(Just ideas....

)

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:26 pm

Egbert wrote:I am going to throw out an idea, to see if it flies. It would be a set of rules designed to preserve the integrity of the clan system, which is a unique part of WOK:

1. Once a player joins a clan, he must remain a member of that clan for at least 1 year.

Fully agree with this one. Though there has to be a clause that a player can leave the clan if he doesn't agree with the rules within the clan. Also there should be a probation period of say 2 months in which the player can leave the clan for another clan, as when you join a clan you have no idea what sort of clan members you will get.

2. There would be a limit of 10 clans that could be in existence at any one time, which can be increased by the WSC if there is a sudden influx of players.

Also agree.

3. New clans cannot be started until the old clans (with their clan names) are resurrected, by any player wishing to start a new clan. If a player wishes to start a new clan, he or she must first get permission from the WSC.

Hmm...resurrecting somebody else's clan? I doubt anybody would be even remotely interested in that. Also i doubt Nick would like some newbie resurrecting Ar-Sereg and turning it in to some dark nap breakers clan.

I think by limiting the number of clans to 10 you are making sure that those clans stay in existence and 'history' can be build around those 10 clans.

This probably won't go anywhere, but I feel that I have to attempt it. With no rules in place, players could play clan merry-go-round, making the clan system worthless.

Well i'll back your proposal...not that my backing currently counts for anything, but i'm sure you can find two WSC members that would agree to presenting these suggestions for a vote.

Saladin

Bjorn · Post by **Bjorn** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:56 pm

I believe history will show that a clan will survive and thrive as long as the founder of that clan remains with it and spends some time on it. The reason that the Scholars have survived this long and remain a force is due to the "Elder Scholar" himself. True, he has found some good help over the years, but it is impossible for me to image the Scholars lasting long if TK were to suddenly join The First Family. Egbert would probably contact TFF and put a 'contract' out on TK if he tried it.

Many of the current clans suffer because the founder has left Kaomaris and turned things over to someone else. A clan loses a bit of its soul when the founder leaves and is never the same. I mean, what if Raven as clan head (and just about only active member) of Dark Stone and Dameon were to decide to 'merge' their clans to form a new clan? Since the founder of Dark Stone is a member of another clan, does he have any right to object to this? Does anyone have a right to object to it?

I don't really understand Al's suggestion about the clan organization. Why even have two divisions if there is no playoff? Whoever has the most VPs at the end of the scoring period is the new Clan Champion. The only reason to have a lower division is to allow them to have their own playoff game, sort of a Division 2 champion. Who wants that? It might make some sense if you limited a clan war to clans in your own division. However there are very few clan wars anymore.

Post by **Egbert** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 2:58 pm

Sal, I'm currently not on the WSC, so the WSC will have to do it themselves, if enough members are interested.

I agree that Dameon would not want "some newbies" resurrecting Ar-Sereg and playing havoc with it. However, under my proposal, the WSC would have to approve the start or resurrection of a clan. Also, if Dameon cared about his clan (sorry, don't mean to pick on him --- this could apply to any founding clan), he would have resurrected it. But, I see your point, Sal --- I guess too much time has passed for enough people to care about resurrecting the old clans. The end of Dark Stone is a tragedy, though, IMHO.

Post by **Lardmaster** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:40 pm

Thuggee dead?

Watch the clan boards for a post later tonight.

Lord Fredo · Post by **Lord Fredo** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:05 pm

Some good points here. I have myself thought for a long time that the clan system has allmost completely lost its meaning with players changing clans 1 or 2 times a year and old clans folding only for a new one to be started.
A limitation of the number of clans would be a good idea in my meaning since it would ensure that the clans around are good and solid before the forming of a new clan can be considered.
A rule restricting new clan members to stay for a year might also be a good idea but not with the restictions Saladin proposes because then it would be a useless rule anyway. What you could do is have people really wanting to leave their clan before a year is through is to let the go merc.
Also a league system like the one proposed by Al might be another way to keep new clans from forming or people from clan hopping since if you would have to start in division 2 you would have no shot at the clan champs for the current season.
I do not think that people that actually do form new clans should be restricted to resurrecting old ones. If you go through the trouble of setting up a clan it's nice if you are part of making it what you want.

Post by **gm_al** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:03 pm

*Wonders why Dameon has not spoken up yet*

Lots of good input here, let me try to put a few points up again. Please state in your answer which you would like to see (YES/NO) so I can see which one I might put up to the WSC for a vote.

1. New Clan members must remain with the Clan for at least a year. No restrictions to this rule.

2. There can never be more then 10 Clans within WOK. Every new Clan has to be approved by the WSC.

3. The WSC checks every 6 months if the Clans are still to be considered as 'active'. Non-active Clans are disbanded.

4. The Top-5 Clans play in Division #1, the other in Division #2. By the end of each scoring period, the Top Clan from Div.#1 is declared Clan Champion. The Clan with the lowest score from #1 relegates to #2, while the Top Scorer from #2 ascents to #1. In case of a draw one of the Clans concerned is picked at random. New Clans always start in #2.

(This last suggestion was made to stimulate competition mainly. Im pretty sure it makes more sense then what we have right now. Imagine that your Clan is just 1-2 VPs behind the leader, and you want to climb up into Div.#1.... wouldnt you try pretty hard ?)

Polymorphic · Post by **Polymorphic** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:05 pm

1. YES
2. Limit: NO, Approvement: YES.
3. YES
4. NO. What's the point?

Brykovian · Post by **Brykovian** » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:50 pm

gm_al wrote:4. The Top-5 Clans play in Division #1, the other in Division #2. By the end of each scoring period, the Top Clan from Div.#1 is declared Clan Champion. The Clan with the lowest score from #1 relegates to #2, while the Top Scorer from #2 ascents to #1. In case of a draw one of the Clans concerned is picked at random. New Clans always start in #2.

(This last suggestion was made to stimulate competition mainly. Im pretty sure it makes more sense then what we have right now. Imagine that your Clan is just 1-2 VPs behind the leader, and you want to climb up into Div.#1.... wouldnt you try pretty hard ?)

I don't really have an opinion on the other 3 points, but on this one, I'd say "No" ... simply because I don't think it's much different than what we used to have before the two leagues were formed. It ends up being a more complicated list with only the top VP-earning clan getting recognition. The 2-level swap could end up being a point of contention -- what if the top 3 teams in division #2 out-scored the bottom 3 teams in division #1? What if the top division #2 team out-scored *all* of the teams in division #1? The way clans have changed over the past couple of years means that a clan that was a top-performer 6 or 12 months ago, might no longer belong in the top division -- and a brand new upstart might be a serious contender. It would really be a pain to delay the drop/rise for a season or two, since it may no longer apply.

Currently, if you're 1-2 VPs behind/ahead of another top team in your league, I'd say you're trying just as hard as you would in Al's proposed system.

-Bryk