The Order of Valn Ohtar

Post by **Lardmaster** » Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:03 pm

Now, I don't post very often on the boards, which i suppose i should do as I read the often but here is what i see as an open and shut case. I have never before argued with Dameon as far as I remember but I think he is wrong on this occassion.

Ar-Sereg. Dameon quit it as did all other members. Therefore that clan is dead as dead can be. IMO no-one can resurrect a dead clan not even the founder. If they want to start a new clan then fair enough but claiming an old clans VPS and history? Surely not.

Ar Sereg was Ar Sereg and cannot be anything else surely. No matter who is in charge.

Dameon had had enough of Ar Sereg and closed it down therefore it is gone forever. Using the excuse of "well there is no rule in place therefore I can do what I like is bad taste IMO". There is nothing to say I can't start a clan called Ar-Sereg and claim the VPs but I wouldn't do it.

Sorry if I'm turning this into a flamer there is really nothing personal in it as I'm sure D appreciates. Just an opinion.

Post by **Dameon** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:57 am

OK, so basically, those of you that are arguing with me believe that once a clan has a name, it CANNOT change the name and retain its standing in Clan Kaohalla. If a clan changes their name, they immediately forfeit everything they have done up to that point, period.

That is ridiculous. Yes, Ar-Sereg was inactive for a time, but only because I was honest. I COULD have pulled a TdD or a BoT and claimed AS was still active all this time, but I chose to respect the rules that were put in place upon the founding of the clans. When AS went inactive, Strider and I were the only members left. Even in Clan Kaohalla, I had AS recorded as "inactive" and NOT "dead" because I fully intended to revive it one day. I thought I had made that clear. That day has come, and with the help and approval of Strider, Bjorn, and Raven, I am activing AS once again, with a few changes, the key one that seems to be causing people to get upset here being that of the name.

I do not understand the people who are against this at all. I NEVER claimed AS was dead, and thus I never gave up control over it. If we want to add a charter and change the name, that is strictly an internal clan matter. Saladin is 100% correct in his post, as is Brykovian- people are making much ado about nothing here.

Anyway, if the WSC wanted to pass a rule saying that only the founders of a clan could ever resurrect that clan, I'd be all for that, although I think it'd be a pointless rule as most folks who begin their own clan prefer to start from scratch. However, if the WSC wants to pass a rule saying that you cannot change the name of your clan without forfeiting clan VPs in Clan Kaohalla, then I am strongly opposed to that. I am done arguing this point as of now, as I keep repeating myself. I'm sure not everybody will approve of what I did, but ces't la vie.

Undertaker · Post by **Undertaker** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:39 pm

Dameon wrote:Wow, what hypocrisy. I cannot believe you just said that. If you will recall, Taker, you also left "part of WOK history" to "start over with a clean slate" as well when you helped form TFF. Now, I don't hold that against you really, because EVERYBODY has done it. Consider this, a grand total of zero of the founding five clans are still active. Well, Thuggee, I guess, if you can consider that active- I consider it to be denial. Part of WOK is clearly change- tons of players have chosen to abandon the founding clans to form their own ones, yourself included, and you give ME flak because I chose to change a name? Please. Yes, I'd rather modify WOK history than see AS become a dead clan and start with a brand new slate- not the path that most have chosen, but I respect the roots of WOK as best I can even when others choose not to.

Look Nick, you're taking my quote out of context. There's no need to take offense.

What I mean is, don't you want to leave what Ar-Sereg did alone, and just describe you new clan as A-S reborn or the second coming?

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:45 pm

I find it funny that when Nick tries to preserve some WOK history by making VO a continuation of the Ar-Sereg history that people would rather see the whole Ar-Sereg history become just that...history, because everybody knows that NONE of the old clans will EVER be revived, so let's just be thankful that Nick at least wants to keep some of the WOK history alive.

Lord Fredo · Post by **Lord Fredo** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:37 pm

Hmm... I suppose but if it really is Ar Sereg reborn why wouldn't it just keep it's name then too ...?
Accoring to the logic that one can do what ever is not specifically forbidden I suppose someone could re-write their clan history and incorporate the VP's of Royal Fianna Fail into their tally...

Hmm ... time to do some typing methinks...

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 4:46 pm

Why is everybody so concerned about vps that Ar-Sereg got a long long time ago...they don't count for anything!

So what's the problem then?

Ecrivian · Post by **Ecrivian** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:26 pm

Dameon wrote: As the clan head of Ar-Sereg (and now Valn Ohtar) I am well within my rights to change anything I want to about it. ... I apologize if you don't like it, but then, you don't have to.

Nick,

Now I know that we've had our differences in the past but honestly, look at what you're writing here.... you make a clear seperation that you are the CH of two clans, not one continous clan. The major difference and I noted this in your charter/clan page is that you describe VO being located in Ar-Sereg Mtns... and saying that its now time to come to life.... or something like that, another seperation.

Also, when you did go and set the clan to inactive, I think the general feeling that you impressed on the community was that you were going to bring back the clan as Ar-Sereg (not something else). I mean clearly, look at the logic in this, an inactive clan, to reactivate the clan would be to keep the original name and change it down the road.... right? I mean, Ar-Sereg must be reactivated before a name change can occur. And I think this is what the community is saying here really.

As far as the Royals and RFF go, there is something that these clans -held in common, the NAME. Royals, ROYAL Fianna Flail. I mean honestly it'd be a whole other matter if we were talking about the Ar-Sereg Order of Valn-Ohter. But I can see why you might not want to do this as there might be other orders/chapters of Valn-Ohter popping up later, cmon Nick like we'd honestly want to steal something from you, we know we'd never hear the end of it. But Nick, seriously, if you changed it to the Ar-Sereg Order of Valn Ohter, then I don't think the community would have a problem with you taking/claiming those VP's at all? What does everyone think?

JUst my 2cents
Ec

WHAT I MEANT TO SAY WAS
addendum .....Bjorn with an axe and Strider, a stork, honestly.... why not a more noble bird like a Swan, or Eagle, or Hawk, hell even a Sparrow, but a stork! *Shakes head*

ps... Am I on the list now?

Post by **Egbert** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:42 pm

Well, actually, I don't see anything preventing Dameon from just activating Ar-Sereg, and then changing the name 1 second later. Actually, anyone can do it, since there are no rules preventing it. Ecrivian can decide to restart Dark Stone, and then change the name to The Sethtimes (

sorry, Ec, I couldn't resist), claiming all of the DS VPs in Clan Kaohalla, and suddenly springing up from nowhere.

So, the real question is --- is a clan entitled to change it's name without first seeking permission from anyone? Under our current rules, which are nonexistant --- the answer is Yes. But actually, as Al has indicated, this is something for the WSC to discuss pronto.

My suggestion would be that a clan could change its name if it has been in existence for X period of time, but that it cannot change its name if it was just started or restarted.

Also, the WSC needs to pass a rule about who can restart a clan. It should probably be anyone who was once a member for a prolonged period of time --- but then it gets tricky as to keeping track of that.

Allister Fiend · Post by **Allister Fiend** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:56 pm

We've discussed it and either way is fine with us.

The Emoticons

Post by **ThinKing** » Wed Aug 06, 2003 9:39 pm

LOL.

Hey Allister. You are making me feel bad. I never knew you were a funny guy.

TK

Tristao · Post by **Tristao** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:42 am

"Consider this, a grand total of zero of the founding five clans are still active. Well, Thuggee, I guess, if you can consider that active- I consider it to be denial."
Dameon

"...history, because everybody knows that NONE of the old clans will EVER be revived,"
Saladin

Well well.

It was not quite my business just untill now.
You've gone and made it MY business now.
I don't pretty much care about any of the arguments presented here. I really don't. But I do care for one thing. Thuggee's name.
Whatever you say (ressuscitate dead clans, changing clan names, kicking Al out of Kaomaris

, etc...) is just fine by me. As long as you don't mention Thuggee.
Just leave us be.

Now, for your information, here are a few facts:
Thuggee is one "of the founding five clans".
Thuggee NEVER died, got suspended, changed name, or whatever.

Please notice that I am NOT saying "you died" or "you are inactive", or "you are too young to know who's been around" or even "you can't do that to your clan!" to anyone.
But I AM saying : "Stay the hell out of my clan's way!"
Capice?

Having had that put in order, I wish you all a continuation of a good

discussion.

Tristao

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:19 am

Who said anything about Thuggee????????

Ecrivian · Post by **Ecrivian** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:31 am

Egbert wrote:Ecrivian can decide to restart Dark Stone, and then change the name to The Sethtimes ( sorry, Ec, I couldn't resist), claiming all of the DS VPs in Clan Kaohalla, and suddenly springing up from nowhere.

Hmmmmmmm, maaayyyyyyyyybe..... but not for a really long time, I like the CoN perhaps a home for more than a year now, lol. and don't worry Eg, I'm sure it was woth the laugh, eh, the "SETHTIMES" eh, maybe, maybe not....

Egbert wrote: Also, the WSC needs to pass a rule about who can restart a clan. It should probably be anyone who was once a member for a prolonged period of time --- but then it gets tricky as to keeping track of that.

Actually, this isn't that hard, I've two suggestions.....

First, we start a thread in the clan stuff section that everyone must post to whenever they change clans..... and this could start with the new scoring period.....

Second, we "hire" a "census bureau" or "censeur," (SP?) a person who has a page that keeps track of clan trades and such, and the CH's would have to email the "censeur" whenever a new member was added, and when that member left the clan, they could then send an email notifiying the end of that member's appearance on the roster of that particular clan. I know what you're thinking, what about the mercs? Well that falls upon CH's too, being as a MERC can't go from a MERC to a MERC without being in a clan at somepoint.

EXAMPLE:

Player P joins Clan C and ClanHead (CH) sends an email to Censeur, email states "PLAYER P has joined CLAN C on the 30th of February, 2000. Before joining CLAN C, PLAYER P was a MERC."

Player P then decides to leave Clan C two months down the road, email looking like such.... "PLAYER P has decided to leave CLAN C on the 30th of April, 2000. PLAYER P was with CLAN C for two months. PLAYER P will now become a MERC."

What do you think?

EC

Tristao · Post by **Tristao** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:08 pm

Saladin wrote:Who said anything about Thuggee????????

Saladin: You emplied that all the "old clans" (as you put it) were dead when you said that "that NONE of the old clans will EVER be revived".

Now, don't take me wrong, I don't wish to cause any trouble or insult anyone, but I do have to clear this misconception about Thuggee.

However you put it, we have allways been alive.

It feels a bit awkward having to explain this here! It's like this law we have in Portugal that old people have to present themselves to this auditory once in a while so they get a "You are alive!" diploma. (because of the taxes and stuff)

But I am not embaressed by this. Actually I am VERY proud to be part of the history of Thuggee.
The only survivor of the original clans. (however people might want to put that)

Tristao

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:33 pm

Well if you want to argue about words here.

As i said that none of the old clans will ever be revived i still stand by that as i think that should for some sad reason Thuggee 'die' as well, that clan will most likely also not be revived by anybody.

Tristao · Post by **Tristao** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 2:59 am

Hey man!

Don't give me that "playing with words" stuff!

I know , I know: "it actually still stands, what I (saladin) have said."

I said you IMPLIED we were dead.
Don't say you didn't think that when you wrote it.
After all Dameon said (about us beeing dead), your post went along with the lines of that speach (maybe you were influenced by what he said, afterall he is supposed to know about these things, right?).

Now, notice how I'm not picking on Dameon. Because he didn't deny what he had said. Now you my friend, on the other hand... are making word games about this.

I have nothing against you, or Dameon. I just want Thuggee to be left alone, with nobody trying to take away our rights, or the hard-earned honour of having survived from the begining.

Thuggee might not have accomplished much to the outsider's eyes, but two things already ALL must admit:
1-We had a player winning a trophy (not all clans can say this).
2-We are the only clan that survived from the original 5 clans (however valuable this might be or not, it is still a fact that I cannot stand to see contested without justice).

I know we are not the topscorers, or the clan with the most elements or VPs, or the clan champions, or whatever. But we do have some things for us. And they were earned.

Please don't think I'm taking you on Saladin. That is not my intention. But I will however keep the record straight on this matter. Understand my position.

Tristao

Mr_Piggy · Post by **Mr_Piggy** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:25 am

All this fuss about changing a clan name? Just read the rules and it is obvious

F. Only active clans will appear on the Clan Score. Any inactive clans will be removed upon the judgement dates. For more information see Article VII

A. A clan leader may organize the internal structure of his clan in whatever fashion he or she chooses.

If I have everything correct, then Dameon is the clanleader and he can ressurect the clan. And as he can change the internal structure of his clan, isn't he allowed to change names too?

Even if this is not a solution, stop making this bigger than it is, it is just changing a name of a clan! This is all a game after all!

Just my 2 cents

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:35 am

Tristao wrote:I said you IMPLIED we were dead.
Don't say you didn't think that when you wrote it.

Lol, Tristao lighten up...how could i think Thuggee is dead when i've got two Thuggee players in the game i'm GM-ing.

I have nothing against you, or Dameon. I just want Thuggee to be left alone, with nobody trying to take away our rights, or the hard-earned honour of having survived from the begining.

ROTFL, why do you think everybody is out to do some harm to Thuggee? Nobody even mentioned Thuggee. If i didn't know better i would think this is just a publicity stunt to get the Thuggee image polished up again.

Post by **Dameon** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 12:07 pm

Tristao wrote: 2-We are the only clan that survived from the original 5 clans

That's not true, because my clan is still around too. The name may be different, but we are still a founding clan. Now, if you want to say that you are the only original clan left that survived without changing your name, that would be true.

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Fri Aug 08, 2003 1:16 pm

Dameon wrote:
Tristao wrote: 2-We are the only clan that survived from the original 5 clans
That's not true, because my clan is still around too. The name may be different, but we are still a founding clan. Now, if you want to say that you are the only original clan left that survived without changing your name, that would be true.

Now Nick, don't take away Thuggees' rights, or the hard-earned honour of having survived from the begining. You'll get in trouble if you do.