Clan Champs

Raw · Post by **Raw** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:00 pm

Egbert wrote:
My guess is that TK won't be able to play until he returns to school, which I believe is October --- we are also playing with a handicap --- without Korexus, for the same reason.

Although I would not want to win by forfeit, I see no other alternative if you guys can't field a team.

Ditto!

Allister Fiend · Post by **Allister Fiend** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:36 pm

Ok, then we'll play a 3 on 3 game, kinda like a gus masters tounament

Undertaker · Post by **Undertaker** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:43 pm

Egbert wrote: Although I would not want to win by forfeit, I see no other alternative if you guys can't field a team.

Give me a break. Win by forfeit, what a load. So we wait, big deal. If he's back in October, thats only 4 weeks. I would imagine Nemesis or Calidus will also be around by then.

If Nick doesn't want to wait that long, we'll have to find another GM.

Lord Fredo · Post by **Lord Fredo** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:01 pm

In all honesty though, if you can't field even four players at a given point how active of a clan are you then? Then again you really should be able to use at least one other player (a merc (?) ) since you really only need four players to form a clan.
In my opinion this is what we get for having people jumping clans continously. We really would be better off having fewer bigger clans getting a little more concistensy.

Post by **Dameon** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 8:01 pm

Well, to be fair I don't expect that every active clan is going to be able to have players being able to play in all the games at once. VO was pretty inactive this summer, after all, with only 3 active players while the rest of us were busy. I can't say I have any sympathy for TFF here either, because the plain fact is if VO had more active players all summer there's a good chance we would be in the Clan Champs right now. We're not because of the August 31 deadline, if the deadline were say October 31 (which is basically what you are proposing here) then we might have made it.

The point is, the deadlines exist for a reason, and there is no provision in the Clan Rules about putting off the Champs game. If TFF is ONLY in the Champs because of three excellent players, they aren't really the best clan out there necessarily- they just happen to have three good players. The Scholars are missing a top player, but they still can play, right? We can't put things off forever. TFF must field a team now. If you can only field three players, that's the way it is, you can't have other clan members in unless they were in TFF during the score period at some time. Now, it's up to the Scholars if they wish to field a full team, if possible, or if they will consent to a 3 vs. 3 war; they are in no way required to do either.

The other alternative, if the Scholars do not agree to a 3 vs. 3 and TFF does not want to play in a 5 vs 3, would be for TFF to forfeit their spot in the Clan Champs. If that happens, the WSC has to figure out what goes on. My personal preference would be for VO to then be qualified and play against the Scholars (who wants to win a title by forfeit only, really?) but no such rules exist right now to guide us either way. The bottom line is it is up to the Scholars and TFF to work this out. Either we have a 3 vs 3, a 5 vs 3, or if TFF wishes to give up it's spot, a 5 vs 5 Scholars/VO war. It IS TFF's spot to keep or give though, and if you guys cannot get the Scholars to agree to a 3 vs 3 but still wish to take your chances in a 5 vs 3 that is well within your rights.

Post by **Donut** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:22 pm

I agree with Fredo here that the definition of an active clan is 4 members... requiring a clan to have 5 players to compete for the clan champs is ridiculous, unless we were to require a minimum of 5 players. In the clan rules under the Clan Warfare section it states that a clan can hire mercenaries to compete with them. It doesn't however define mercenary (It almost sounds like a hired warrior, not a clan-less player), nor does it say how many players can be hired as mercs... I guess something to discuss.

Also, the scoring cutoff for this period hasn't even come about yet... I would say that TFF has about a week to find out if TK will be able to play. I can't imagine TFF giving their spot up to VO in the champs(considering the majority of the VP's earned for VO are now members of The Vulkings

).

Donut

Undertaker · Post by **Undertaker** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:42 pm

Donut wrote:I agree with Fredo here that the definition of an active clan is 4 members... requiring a clan to have 5 players to compete for the clan champs is ridiculous, unless we were to require a minimum of 5 players. In the clan rules under the Clan Warfare section it states that a clan can hire mercenaries to compete with them. It doesn't however define mercenary (It almost sounds like a hired warrior, not a clan-less player), nor does it say how many players can be hired as mercs... I guess something to discuss.

Also, the scoring cutoff for this period hasn't even come about yet... I would say that TFF has about a week to find out if TK will be able to play. I can't imagine TFF giving their spot up to VO in the champs(considering the majority of the VP's earned for VO are now members of The Vulkings ).

Donut

Thanks for pointing out that without Val and Han, VO wouldn't even be in 3rd place.

Now as to this crap that we're not even a "active" clan. What a cop out. Until just very recently, we had 5 players in games. And like Donut said, the scoring ends tomorrow. It seems you are all to eager to see us bow out, so someone can achieve a cheap victory and so called "Champ" title. Otherwise I can't see what the big deal is waiting a little.

Not to get out of anything, but realistically, TFF should be fighting BOV. We did win the VP scoring period by a long shot. Who cares who finished second. Without the two "leagues", it really makes sense that the top clan fights the reigning champs.

BTW, what deadlines are you talking about Nick? Is there some rule that says a clan has "x" days to field a team. I apologize for not being aware of it. Please post that rule here.

Post by **Dameon** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:42 am

Don't be a sore loser, Taker. By your reasoning, the deadlines mean nothing. Individual Champs are supposed to start Dec 1? Well, what if I am on vacation for two months and can't play until Feb, but qualified for the Champs? That means the game should absolutely be delayed for two months just so I can play, for sure. That is your argument here. It is absurd to say we should delay the Clan Champs for a month or more just so TK can play and because Calidus MIGHT return! The deadline is clear. What if, for instance, Egbert has time to play now but can't in a month? Or what if he can play, but has less time to play his best game? Is it fair to wait for your player so another can't? Where does it end?

If you have a problem with following deadlines, and think that all Champs games should be put off until every single player in them is able to play with plenty of free time (read: never), then bring up a vote to the WSC to abolish all the deadlines. Or, if you don't like the Clan Champs war, bring up a vote to get rid of them. But you simply cannot change the rules retroactively because you don't like them now.

TFF is in the Clan Champs. If they cannot field a full time and the Scholars refuse to limit their participation, then TFF is more than welcome to to face the Scholars at a numerical disadvantage, or withdraw. THERE IS NO RULE PROHIBITING TFF FROM PLAYING IN THE CHAMPS WITH LESS THAN 5 WARRIORS!!! Now, the two clans in the war need to talk and figure out the next step.

Post by **Donut** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:59 am

I agree that there is an implied deadline. To delay it a month would not be good simply for the fact that you may not have the same clan (as they change so quickly). I know that isn't the case here, but there is definitely a precident to set.

I'm still curious as to the rule on Mercs joining the game.

Donut

Allister Fiend · Post by **Allister Fiend** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:34 am

I get the feeling that this is only getting worse each post.

but.......

I still feel that since TFF has the MOST VP's this period, we should be able to choose how many players get to play in it, not just if it is WoK 4 or WoK 5.

If not, explain to me why the Scholars get to decide then?

Maybe we should make it a WOK 4 game and then Warped Angel will probably play. That would be 4 out of the 5 we need.

just my opinion in here too.

AF

Post by **Donut** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:47 am

I think that there are 10 spots in the game. 5 are open to each clan. It's up to the clan on how they are to fill it.

Why not make it a WOK4 game, seems to be in your best interest here. I would like to see the best WOK5 clans go at it in WOK5 but I'd rather see a competitive Clan Champs first.

Man, the things guys living on steady diets of government cheese come up with.

Donut

Allister Fiend · Post by **Allister Fiend** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:53 am

Why not make it a WOK4 game, seems to be in our best interest here. I would like to see the best WOK5 clans go at it in WOK5 but I'd rather see and play in a competitive Clan Champs first.

AF

Post by **Donut** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:21 am

What?

Lord Fredo · Post by **Lord Fredo** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:43 am

Undertaker wrote:Not to get out of anything, but realistically, TFF should be fighting BOV. We did win the VP scoring period by a long shot. Who cares who finished second. Without the two "leagues", it really makes sense that the top clan fights the reigning champs.

Oh good luck with that one!

I allready tried that before without any success but I really couldn't agree more.

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:07 am

Ok guys, now lets see what we can do.

1. TFF can hire mercs to fill up the remaining spots. Though i have to say it would be ridiculous to play wok 5 and by that leave out an actual clan member (Warped Angel) in favour of a merc.

2. TFF can choose to play with less players against 5 from the Scholars.

3. The Scholars can agree to also play with less players.

4. TFF loses their spot in the Clan Champs and it goes to the next highest scoring clan.

I would be in favour of option 1, 2 and if absolutely necessary option 4. As option 3 punishes some Scholars who would love to play in the Clan Champs.

So what will it be TFF?

Post by **Egbert** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 11:44 am

Allister Fiend wrote:Maybe we should make it a WOK 4 game and then Warped Angel will probably play. That would be 4 out of the 5 we need.

Warped Angel, Mylantis, UT, AF --- I count 4 TFF, not 3. Hey TFF, is it that you just want to play with what you think are your 3 best players?

Don't forget, it's up to you to choose WOK4 or WOK5.

FYI, the Scholars are discussing the many suggestions being posted.

Mylantis · Post by **Mylantis** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:52 pm

We are discussing things as well and I should be able to give you an answer by Thursday morning if not before. A whole two days after the scoring period has ended..............a whole week since I e-mailed the clan the first time......sorry for the delay i guess........

I'd like to call for another GM to step up and run this game. GM Nick seems to have forgotten that we play this game for fun. I see how pushy and rude he is now, before the game has even started, and can only imagine how much "fun" it's going to be playing this game under GOD/GM Nick.

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:05 pm

Everybody knows that GM Nick is a great GM, so i see no reason to ask him not to run the Clan Champs.

Post by **Dameon** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:57 pm

The problem here is that I have not agreed with TFF to delay the game for two months just so TK could play and so they could find Calidus. With that in mind, they no longer like me. I don't know if you realized this, TFF, but every single player not in TFF who has posted agrees with the Scholars and I here regarding how this should be resolved. You guys are simply upset that I have taken the point on this. As I have REPEATEDLY said, if you do not like the solutions that I have presented, you are more than welcome to bring this matter to the WSC. I do realize that if another GM were running this you may have been able to pontificate and delay even further, and I do also realize that you are simply trying to get another delay here by asking for a GM change. It's stupid to accuse me of being pushy as a GM simply because I am making you actually respect the deadline, or god forbid, making you actually consider Warped Angel a part of your clan who can actually play in the Champs.

But that is, of course, your perogative. If you don't want me to GM the game, I will gladly step down and let somebody else do so. I do have a feeling, however, that even if I don't GM this game TFF will still be signing up for other games I run, so don't you guys think you are being at least a wee bit hypocritical here?

Undertaker · Post by **Undertaker** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 1:58 pm

Egbert wrote:
Allister Fiend wrote:Maybe we should make it a WOK 4 game and then Warped Angel will probably play. That would be 4 out of the 5 we need.
Warped Angel, Mylantis, UT, AF --- I count 4 TFF, not 3. Hey TFF, is it that you just want to play with what you think are your 3 best players? Don't forget, it's up to you to choose WOK4 or WOK5.

FYI, the Scholars are discussing the many suggestions being posted.

We haven't heard from WA yet. I would choose WOK 5 because I prefer it, but if WA is in, we can go with WOK 4. If we can only field 4 players, I would expect the Scholars to do the same.

One more thing, this is a game after all, lets try to enjoy it.

BTW, where is the deadline at?

I still haven't seen proof of a time frame to organize our clan. And no, I'm not trying to set a "dangerous" precedent by delaying. I would say 7 -14 days after scoring ends would be a reasonable time.