The Order of Valn Ohtar

[Allister Fiend]

but it is impossible for me to image the Scholars lasting long if TK were to suddenly join The First Family.

ROFLMF'nAOff

That will never happen!

TFF would rather....... well forget it, I won't start anything.

[Saladin]

1. New Clan members must remain with the Clan for at least a year. No restrictions to this rule.

There should be an option for a player to petition the WSC to allow him to leave a clan for another clan. Of course the player would have to have very good grounds for him to be granted a 'transfer'.

[korexus]

How about this?

Beginners join a clan as currently. Then after they have become advanced players (and hopefully picked up a bit more about the clan system) they are allowed to join a different clan if they wish. Apart from this exception, players may only join one clan per scoring period. - If they want to leave their clan they may, but only to become a Merc. They must wait until the next "round" before they can join another clan.

It would be a fairly simplistic system, but easy enough to keep track of.


korexus.

[Dameon]

I like most of the ideas being discussed here, really. However, before I comment on it, I do want people to understand that Valn Ohtar IS just Ar-Sereg reborn primarly. I changed some things, such as codifying a charter and the officer corps, but the reason I changed the name of the clan is because of the background story I came up with to explain the changes seemed to dictate a name change was necessary, especially with Raven, the ex-DS clan head, joining. I did post a link to that story on the VO page if anybody is interested- it is brief, but hopefully clear. I AM having Valn Ohtar take over Ar-Sereg's place in Kaohalla, and it does continue the same traditions Ar-Sereg had- just because I changed the name doesn't mean AS is wiped from WOK history. I do consider Dark Stone to have a large founding part in Valn Ohtar too, not only for Raven, but also for the first beginner we have, who was originally a DS recruit.

Now on to Al's suggestions:

1. New Clan members must remain with the Clan for at least a year.

I like this idea. I don't really see any harm in it, provided there is a backdoor clause that will let players who just hate their clan for some reason petition the WSC for an exception. I think we should put the burden of enforcing this on the clan head's shoulders, but that shouldn't be difficult as long as they keep the date a player joined their clan handy.

2. There can never be more then 10 Clans within WOK. Every new Clan has to be approved by the WSC.

Wow yes. I like this idea a whole lot. I don't see the justification for more than 10 clans right now. If that changes in the future, fine, but until we have at least 50 or so solid advanced players I don't see the need for extra clans.

3. The WSC checks every 6 months if the Clans are still to be considered as 'active'. Non-active Clans are disbanded.

PLEASE yes! Give the WSC some teeth on this matter! It's about bloody time we instituted this type of rule. I would suggest an enforcement date starting with the next clan period, about a month from now.

4. The Top-5 Clans play in Division #1, the other in Division #2. By the end of each scoring period, the Top Clan from Div.#1 is declared Clan Champion. The Clan with the lowest score from #1 relegates to #2, while the Top Scorer from #2 ascents to #1. In case of a draw one of the Clans concerned is picked at random. New Clans always start in #2.

Nice try, Al. I didn't like this idea when you first proposed something very similar to it (if not this exactly) when clan leagues first came into existence, and I don't like it now. It's too complicated, and I don't like doing away with the clan war to decide the Clan Champs, not at all.

In any case I think there's enough support here to bring the four issues up for a WSC vote if you want to do that, Al. I would like to see the healthy debate about them continue here in public on the boards as well, it's a good way to see the various perspectives on the issues.

[Aussie Gaz]

Al

I will keep it short.

YES
YES
YES
Hell NO!!!!!!

[Strider]

I like Korexus's view the most. It's easy to understand, simple bookeeping and is in the spirit of what the new rules would hope to accomplish.

Oh yeah, check out the new avatar. And no, it is not a chicken (I'm writing down names.... ). Don't diss the heron.

[Goat Herder]

Quote:
1. New Clan members must remain with the Clan for at least a year.

>>>sounds a good idea in theory, but there must be an out. NAP breaking is a common reason, internal conflict another, the other one is joining a friend in another clan (esp a new clan). Which is a valid reason & which isn't?

Quote:
2. There can never be more then 10 Clans within WOK. Every new Clan has to be approved by the WSC.

>>>if it will help to build up existing clans before they die, then good idea.

Quote:
3. The WSC checks every 6 months if the Clans are still to be considered as 'active'. Non-active Clans are disbanded.

>>>or Every 12 months? There would be some extra work for the extra work for the WSC Chair or whoever is charged with the job. Should conincide with either election of clan reps to the WSC, or the clan league scoring periods.

Quote:
4. The Top-5 Clans play in Division #1, the other in Division #2.

>>>I'm not confident about the merits this idea. Newbies could tend to join to the higher clans, so the bottom ones are forever at the bottom. It would be good if we had a larger group of players, but with our small numbers it may be counter-productive.

[Goat Herder]

Sal, I'm currently not on the WSC, so the WSC will have to do it themselves, if enough members are interested.

I agree that Dameon would not want "some newbies" resurrecting Ar-Sereg and playing havoc with it. However, under my proposal, the WSC would have to approve the start or resurrection of a clan. Also, if Dameon cared about his clan (sorry, don't mean to pick on him --- this could apply to any founding clan), he would have resurrected it. But, I see your point, Sal --- I guess too much time has passed for enough people to care about resurrecting the old clans. The end of Dark Stone is a tragedy, though, IMHO.

I agree entirely. Very few will remember in a year or so time that the new clan was really the old Ar Sereg (unless they bother to read the fine print on every clan page of WOK), but those that do have a corporate memory will remember that Ar Sereg was once a great mover and shaker in the game and so might well have an interest in resurrecting the name. Even though Dameon thinks he's got dibs on the name, it's still there to be used if someone wants to. Good luck to them, and I hope somebody does resurrect the name eventually. The same for Thuggee and Dark Stone. ...sometime! somewhere! some ghost from the past will rise from the ashes to haunt your every waking hour....

Have fun.

[gm_al]

I agree with GH here. Even if the new Valn Clan is meant to be "the new Ar-Sereg" it simply isnt.
My view on this is simple. Once you disband a Clan it is free to take over. If you wish to resurrect it in any way, you will have to do it UNDER ITS OLD NAME. I therefore strongly oppose the "picking up the VPs Ar-Sereg had" action. Valn might be an evolution from what Ar-Sereg once was, but still it is a NEW Clan. And just like GH said, Ar-Sereg is still there to be picked up.

I will also wait for more opinions before I formulate anything the WSC can vote on. If any WSC member wants to do it already plz go ahead, I am very pressed on my time right now, as RL work has increased dramatically (thats the back side in summer when you are alone in the office)

[Saladin]

Quote:
3. The WSC checks every 6 months if the Clans are still to be considered as 'active'. Non-active Clans are disbanded.

>>>or Every 12 months? There would be some extra work for the extra work for the WSC Chair or whoever is charged with the job. Should conincide with either election of clan reps to the WSC, or the clan league scoring periods.

I think 6 months should be the max. Just like Nick, i feel that clans should be checked regularly wether or not they can be considered an active clan and 'deserve' a spot on the WSC. I still feel that having someone register player stats (how many games played, when was last game, vps won, etc.) would be a great way to determine a lot of things, amongst which weter or not a clan is active. I'd be willing to keep track of these stats, though if our gatekeeper wants to add this to his tasks he's more than welcome to it.

[Dameon]

Whoa, I think it's a little too strict to say "Once you name a clan, you can never change the name!" Who the heck is the WSC to tell a clan how it can name itself? You may not like the idea that I changed the name of AS here, guys, but I did. As the clan head of Ar-Sereg (and now Valn Ohtar) I am well within my rights to change anything I want to about it. The only reason the clan was disbanded for a while was because of that stupid GM/clanmates rule. I wonder if you would be arguing with me here if I was not "resurrecting" AS, but simply changing the name to VO without any inactive period in between- somehow, I doubt it. As I said the basic idea behind the clan is still the same, but I felt that it was time for some changes at least, including the name. Valn Ohtar is NOT a new clan- not entirely. I apologize if you don't like it, but then, you don't have to.

[korexus]

Admittedly I wasn't around when Ar Sereg was, but I've read enough of the WoK histories and clan pages to get a feel for what's going on.

Who the heck is the WSC to tell a clan how it can name itself?

The WSC may not be able to tell you what you can name a clan. But when you're talking about creating a clan and taking the VPs from a disbanded clan the WSC should get a say in whether you can or not. Admittedly, you being clanhead of AS and now VO does give you a case. But if Thuggee were to fold tomorrow and Lardmaster started a new clan the day after should he be able to claim all those "Thuggee VPs"? (Note this is not an attack on Thugge or LM, just an example!)


I read your in character fiction, Dameon, and I liked it. But even in that there are mentions of the other knights of Ar Sereg. What if they one day want to resurrect the order. It could rapidly get very pythonesque, with the "Peoples' Knights of Sereg" the "Sereg Peoples' Knights" and the "Popular Knights of Sereg" (splitters!)

I'd suggest that a clan can only reformed (in a sense of claiming previous VPs) if it contains at least 1 (2?) former members and keeps the same name. Otherwise, while it may be an evolution of the old clan it is not the old clan.

Of course, my opinion is largely irrelevant in this, but I'm giving it anyway!


korexus.

[Brykovian]

I have to say that I think Dameon has a point about resurrecting and re-naming his clan. AS was his baby ... he's found a way to get it back together, but wants to signify an important change within it by renaming it. When X-Wing renamed the Royals to the RFF, did he get to carry the history along with it? Every historic account of that clan that I've read has considered it a continuous thing, just with a new name.

And what would the historic VPs of AS's gain the newly formed/re-built VO clan? Nothing more than historic continuity.

Personally, I'm glad to see that Strider and Dameon are back under the same banner ... gaining Bjorn and Raven is quite a steal and makings of a very formidable clan.

The only reason the clan was disbanded for a while was because of that stupid GM/clanmates rule.

Somehow, I think this may not be exactly accurate ... if I remember right, some AS members went off to new clans, and others (Jagd, Tbert) just quit playing for whatever reason. Also, if I remember right, only Strider went merc ... and I don't remember any of them making a public claim that they couldn't live without playing in GM Nick's games and that was the primary reason for leaving AS ...

But, of course, Dameon was much closer to the issue at the time, and is allowed a little historic re-construction ...

-Bryk

[gm_al]

Hmmmm... I think we might have a new case of a "first-time" event here.

Right now there is no rule on who is allowed to re-surrect a Clan, under what name, if he would get its VPs and what actually happens to a disbanded Clan.

As Korexus has very well stated, what happens if an ex-AS member looked to bring back AS to life again ? Would you forbid it Dameon ? Would you even be allowed to prevent him from doing so ? (Who "owns" a Clan btw ?)

I think the WSC has a few things to take care of, and Dameon a few proposals to work out.

Until then Id suggest that we see the VP state of the new Clan, even if its just some historical fact, as "pending".

God, I love it when the WSC gets busy. Bring on the votes !

[Saladin]

The more i think about clans being resurrected the more i believe that the only persons that should be allowed to ressurect a clan would be one of the founding members. For instance the whole history of Ar-Sereg has been built around a number of players. If some new players ressurected Ar-Sereg, what 'bond' do they have with the original Ar-Sereg. Of course, they could write some new history which would make them part of the Ar-Sereg history, but that's the exact same thing as Nick has done by evolving Ar-Sereg in to VO.

So who's got the right to ressurect a clan? The player(s) that errected that clan in the first place.

[Raven]

It is a real shame what happened to Dark Stone. The problem was the lack of members. For whatever reason I could not get new players to stay interested. Both Jeddy and Armagheddon could have won the first game but did not continue playing.

Also talked to a few players a few month back about joining and when CP and his friend did not join there is little I could think of doing. If someone tried to bring it back who had never been a part of it before and I thought would make a mess of it I will likely try to stop them.

Hopfully though the clan can come back and be as sucessful as it should be.

[Lord Fredo]

Hmm, I don't know. Sure any clan might try and call it self what ever it wants but that doesn't necessary mean that they will be recognized as something else.
I really do not think it makes all that much sense to start a new clan under a new name and expect to be able to claim VP's won under another clan name. It would make equally little sense to start a new sports team and claim to hold all sorts of records in hall of fame and what have you.

[ThinKing]

It is a ridiculous claim that Valn Ohtar is the same clan as Ar-Sereg. Which members of "VPs? No ta*!" would put their names under an Arse-Regiment banner? Strider did. Bjorn and Raven, I'm not so sure.

Arse-Regiment considered themselves to be holy knights. Would they REALLY recruit members of Dark Stone - the "evil" clan??

It seems that Dameon is choosing to link OVO to AS in some ways, and yet ignoring AS in other cases.

I guess its time to make a decision, Dameon. If this clan is just a revamped AS, then name it AS. If it is new, do not claim any ties with AS except that you were once a member. I dont see why you're so eager to get to those "old" VPs anyway.


TK



* I just remembered that "ta" might not be used in other countries. It is short for "Thanks".

[gm_al]

Hmmmmm... taking a citation from the HiScore page:

"PLAYERS MAY ONLY USE ONE CHARACTER NAME...USING MULTIPLE NAMES IS NOT PERMITTED. ANY PLAYER FOUND TO BE WILLFULLY AND DECEITFULLY USING MULTIPLE NAMES WILL BE STRIKEN FROM KAOHALLA AND HISCORE AND MAY ONLY RE-ENTER AFTER PUBLIC APOLOGY, AND WITH THEIR COUNTERS RESET" (I didnt put the caps)

I guess something similar might/should apply to Clans too. Translated it could mean "if you build something new, leave the past behind".

And Raven, while I welcome you share the new Clans thoughts and imagery, how about differentiating your avatar from the one your Clan head is using ? (Btw now that TK has shown me that you have turned from "evil" to "good" I might have to rethink a few things..... or hehehehe are you just a SPY in there ??)

[Dameon]

The real problem here is that Ar-Sereg was inactive for a while. It is true that the clan was having problems when I decided to disband it, but frankly, they were no more severe than other times, such as when Calidus left the clan or I lost Taker and AF in one swoop. I COULD have recruited new members and kept it alive, or simply ignored the rules about four active members as many clans had done. However, because of the clanmate/GM rule, I didn't want to mess with any of that, so I let AS die, for the time being.

The only active members of AS left were Strider and I. I was a founding member of the clan and I'm pretty sure Strider was also, or very close to it. The fact is, if any other member of AS wanted to come back, they would be welcome to join Valn Ohtar, no questions asked. If they wanted to resurrect the clan as Ar-Sereg, well, frankly, I VERY highly doubt that would -ever- happen. And by transforming AS into VO, I am making SURE it doesn't.

Bottom line, there is no existing rule about this now, so it is done. I have a solid claim and a justifiable reasoning behind my actions here, and while you may not all agree with me, that's not my problem. If the WSC wants to put down some rules about clan name changes for the future, they can (although I would argue against that strongly), but rules are never applied retroactively.

Oh- and about the clan imagary. I have encouraged all VO members to use their own personal crest as their board avatar, as a way of showing some clan unity. There are diffences between them- a player's personal avatar appears at the bottom of the shield, below the chevron (upside-down V). The two symbols above the chevron are standard for all VO members. I like the idea as a great way to show some clan unity here on the boards, and other members agree with me, I think.