GM Josh - Tenaria

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Post by korexus » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:39 am

I use the AOF sender for exactly this reason. As my copy arrived a few hours before the deadline, hopefully so did Al's copy...

A time stamp on the AOF would be possible, I think. I'll try out my usual tactic of 'working on it' until Rune does it for me! :P

As for this case, of course I'd like you to re-run the turn. They're my orders, I don't think many people would argue with that though. At least once Al can verify the time...

As a GM, I don't scan orders until about half an hour before the deadline. - Players (Xarfei, Validon) keep sending me revised orders so it saves time over all. Of course that wouldn't have helped in this case, if the mail came in so much later.

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Post by Dameon » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:14 pm

I don't think Trewqh's case IS irrelevent here. He sent his orders in before the deadline, and even if they never arrived (or did they, just late?), he still sent them before the deadline. The fact that Josh never recieved them is the same situation as we have with Korexus here. Maybe Trewqh can't PROVE he sent them before the deadline, but unless you are calling him a liar, the fact is he still did. I use the text file yeah, but there's a timestamp on each e-mail too.

I've never had a GM not recieve my orders though, mainly because I always send them in at least 24 hours in advance. I have, in the past, had players complain to me because I didn't run their orders since they were not in by the deadline. My take on this has always been that the players are out of luck if they waited until the last minute. The deadline is for when I get the orders, not when they are sent. We all know email sometimes takes time, and if a player waits, they are taking a risk the GM might not get their orders by the deadline. I have never had a case where the orders were sent in more than 6 hours before the deadline and did not arrive in time, either.

It's hardly fair to say Korexus would be granted a rerun where Trewqh wasn't simply because Kor used the AOF sender and Trewqh didn't. Either they both get reruns, or neither should- otherwise you set up a double standard.
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Post by Saladin » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:38 pm

LOL Nick, a time stamp on an e-mail can be changed so easily. :D

Nope not double standards, it's a simple case of proof. If you send it via the AOF sender you have some form of proof and people will know for sure that you send it before the deadline and more importantly before you had a chance to look at the turn report.

Now of course i trust Trewqh, but if people are put in a situation where they can cheat, some will so i prefer to not put them in that situation.
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Post by trewqh » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:54 pm

I totally disagree with you Dameon.

The fact that you or Donut trust me doesn't mean that someone wouldn't abuse this way of handling things.

You say that either noone gets a rerun or both are legitimate, but which option would you choose if you were the GM?

AOF Sender also uses e-mail actually. What if you received some orders after you have sent out the TRs, but the orders were sent a couple of hours before the deadline? Would you not accept them?
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Post by Dameon » Thu Apr 29, 2004 7:56 pm

No, it is a case of trust the way Josh is running it. If Trewqh's orders came in, with a timestamp, and were clearly sent BEFORE the deadline, then why shouldn't he get a rerun by the logic Korexus is claiming here? Just because Trewqh didn't complain means that he doesn't get a rerun, even though his orders were sent before a deadline just like Kor's?

However, to answer your question Trewqh, no, I would not accept those orders if I were running the turn at the deadline. The deadlines are for when the orders get to me. I would not have granted you a rerun if I were in Josh's shoes, and I wouldn't do it for Korexus either. I'd treat both cases the same way, which is what I feel Josh should do too. If people are waiting until the last minute to send in orders, then they have to accept that they may not arrive in time- email isn't always instantaneous. I've never, ever had orders be sent more than 6 hours in advance and not arrive on time. When my deadlines are at least 96 hours apart, I'd say that if you are waiting until the end to do orders you are taking a risk. If you think you might need an extension, ask for one- I have never said "no" to an extension request, and I doubt any GM would.

This also removes the issue of trust from the equation completely. I don't care what the timestamp says from either email or the AOF sender. The only time I might make an exception is if you sent your orders in at least 12 hours before the deadline and they don't arrive- but I've never run into that situation in the 35 games I have GMd.
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Post by Saladin » Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:15 am

Dameon wrote:No, it is a case of trust the way Josh is running it. If Trewqh's orders came in, with a timestamp, and were clearly sent BEFORE the deadline, then why shouldn't he get a rerun by the logic Korexus is claiming here? Just because Trewqh didn't complain means that he doesn't get a rerun, even though his orders were sent before a deadline just like Kor's?
Simply because the time stamp on a mail can be changed easily, so it's not proof. I could look at a turn report and then send in orders with a time stamp saying that i send them in earlier.
If people are waiting until the last minute to send in orders, then they have to accept that they may not arrive in time- email isn't always instantaneous. I've never, ever had orders be sent more than 6 hours in advance and not arrive on time.
Well this does happen ocassionally.
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Post by korexus » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:04 am

Saladin wrote:
Dameon wrote:If people are waiting until the last minute to send in orders, then they have to accept that they may not arrive in time- email isn't always instantaneous. I've never, ever had orders be sent more than 6 hours in advance and not arrive on time.
Well this does happen ocassionally.
Indeed, it seems it took well over 6 hours for this set of orders to arrive. They were sent 4 and a half hours before the deadline and didn't arrive until "hours after" - Only Donut can say for certain, but judging by the time of his post 13 hours seem to have passed between the orders being sent and them arriving.

This has nothing to do with an extension to the deadline, so stop trying to confuse the issue, and as for the other reasons, just admit that you're only saying all this because you think you'll do worse out of a rerun. It has nothing to do with anything else. (Of course, my view is tinted by the fact that I would hope to do better from a re-run. However as everyone else posting, including the person that you are using as a reason for not having a re-run, say that there should be one I don't feel that my personal bias is so much of an issue here.)


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Post by Lowebb » Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:34 am

Yeah it is ridiculasly easy to change the timestamp on an email. Anyone who gets as much spam as me must know about it. They change their system clock to the year 2006 so the spam will stay at the top of the list until it is deleted. The same way it is easy to change the system clock back a day or 2 to send the email and make it look like they were sent on time.

I personally wouldnt accept email which arrived after I ran the turn though I make (used to) as much effort to check for new mail at the last possible moment before running the turn

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Post by Donut » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:37 pm

Korexus did indeed send in a second set of orders 4.5 hours before the deadline. I didn't receive them for over 12 hours so I cannot fault Korexus on that. In my opinion he sent them in plenty of time to assume that I would get them. There will be a re-run. It should be out in a few hours (It's 7:30 and I have a class to sleep through :sleeping:).

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Post by Dameon » Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:33 pm

Well, Ben agrees with me on the GM aspect at any rate. Of course I have a bias here, but the fact is I am being totally honest- as GM I would not have granterd a rerun in either case; I believe in applying the same rules to all my players. I do think that Josh is applying a double standard here by giving Kor the rerun and not Trewqh when the circumstances were the same in both cases. The only difference is Trewqh didn't complain about it- the squeaky wheel does get the grease, it appears. If you seriously think that Trewqh would change his timestamp, I think less of you. Sure, sure, it COULD happen, but do you believe any of your players would do it? Case-by-case, while Trewqh can't prove he sent his orders on time, the evidence (including his problems sending mail to my hotmail account during the same timeframe) does indicate that he did. It's well within Josh's discretion to do what he wants with his game, and if he wants to give Kor the rerun after ignoring the fact that Trewqh was in the same situation well, that's his perogative.

What if somebody sent in revised orders ten minutes before the deadline and then demanded a rerun if they didn't get used? Is that a different case than this one? Where do you draw the line??? Josh, you are just opening yourself up for a lot more work in the future here, but if that's what you want....
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Post by korexus » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:42 pm

Don't worry, Nick. I've just noticed an annoying retreat option in the orders I sent Josh, so my trained armies won't jump up and down on your upgrades quite as much as you're afraid they will. Of course, as you only had 4 survivors at the end first time round, it could still make all the difference...

One more time for you on the lateness thing, as you still don't quite seem to understand.

There. Is. No. Double. Standard. Here. There is a clear difference between my case and trewqh's case in that I can prove when my orders were sent and trewqh can't. No-one is accusing trewqh of cheating, but accepting those orders would be a dangerous precedent to set. Doing so would open the system to abuse by any player. Any GM discretion used to decide whose emails to accept could just as easily be called favouritism. I understand this, trewqh understands this, Josh understands this. It's very nice of you to fight trewqh's corner for him (so selflessly) but you're starting to look like a bit of an idiot, so maybe you should stop.

And as for your question about players who send orders minutes before the deadline. Considering that emails take about 30 seconds to travel the net most of the time, I would have no-problems re-running the turn. 99.5% of the time, the orders would have arrived before I'd finished updating the page anyway. The other 1 time in 200 would be a situation like this, where the orders arrive hours late so the fact that they were sent minutes early is irrelevant.

To be completely honest, I feel a GM should have to run orders which can be shown to have been sent before the deadline. Otherwise, if say, I didn't like a player, I could claim not to have received his orders and thus mess up the game for him. Most players do seem to send AOFs in the last few hours before a deadline after all...

Time to go and update my house rules I guess.


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Last edited by korexus on Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by korexus » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:28 pm

This post was deleted by korexus in Admin mode, who felt that gloating too much maybe seen as tempting fate.

And yes, I was going to do this before I saw TK's post, but I was wandering round Oxford so couldn't...
Last edited by korexus on Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ThinKing » Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:59 pm

The new Scholar motto - "gracious in victory"?

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Post by Dameon » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:07 pm

I am quitting Josh's Tenaria game to protest the rerun, nor will I join any of his future games. Korexus' extra attack made ZERO difference, because of that retreat order, yet he still won the city battle (by four units, ironically). I can guarentee you that if he had won the battle the first time, he would not have made a big fuss about those revised orders being used. If there had been a major difference to Kor's strategy, if he had not had that retrat option or would have attacked my catapults with another force, I would continue to play. However, the bottom line is Korexus did not like the way the city battle turned out, and since it was such a close battle, decided to press for the rerun. He would never have done so if he had won the first time, so it is unfair in the extreme to run the turn again simply to give his armies another shot at winning this time.

I believe there is a double standard, but that I could live with and continue playing. Josh rerunning the turn just because Korexus lost the battle, well, that is not acceptable to me as a player. Unless you can tell me, Kor, that you HONESTLY would have made the same exact demand for the rerun had you won the first time with four units left. Somehow, I doubt it. So, you turned to the GM for another chance using a nice little loophole, and you got it. Forget it, I am done with this one.

I also wanted to add that in the future, I am going to make sure to send in "revised" orders on turns I may have major battles very close to the deadline so that, if I lose them, hey at least the GM has to give me another shot!
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Post by trewqh » Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:44 pm

Usually GMs use the last set of orders they receive.

As I understand what happened, korexus didn't press on Josh to rerun the turn. It was Josh who addressed us with a question whether it was OK to rerun the turn in the light of what happened with my orders. If it wasn't for my situation, I believe Josh wouldn't have doubts that there should be a rerun and that korexus can NOT say 'don't rerun, I'm OK with the results'. Am I right, Josh?

korexus joined the discussion only after Josh got replies that my case was irrelevant (and, again, it wasn't because my orders not reaching Josh at all is a fact. and it's not even a matter of trust 'cause i'm not telling you whether i sent them in or not :P)

The difference between us is whether orders that reach the GM after deadline should be accepted at all.

One more thing, Dameon, can you honestly say that you would be against a rerun if you had extremely bad luck during the original run and then read Josh's post about the late arrival of korexus' revised orders?

Sorry if my english is awkward,
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Post by Donut » Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:05 pm

Korexus did approach me about what happened to his revised orders. I did see the dilemna with you Trewqh, and that is why I had doubts. You made my decision easy however by saying that the events were different.

Nick: I can't believe this. I'm speechless, well not quite, check your e-mail. Whether or not you would like to join my future games, I most likely would not have allowed it, not after the crap you just pulled.

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Post by korexus » Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:51 pm

Thankyou, trewqh. As Donut says, I did email him asking for a re-run. Almost as soon as I read my turn report. I also mentioned it in a reply to the email Nick sent me to tell me all about how great he was. Maybe I shouldn't have given him the advanced warning...

Nick, if you actually care about "the truth"*. When I sent Josh the email asking for the re-run, I didn't even remember that I had set a retreat option. Without that, I would almost certainly have destroyed your entire attacking force so this wouldn't be an issue.

Even with the retreat option, my higher level and EFF would suggest that I should kill a small selection of your troops anyway. In a fight that is so close and involves so many upgrades, killing 4-6 of your troops before the start could easily have swung the difference.

Thirdly, I didn't just change my attacking orders. I'm sure you realise that other orders also affect a turn in WoK 5, even if the changes are not visible to other players immediately.

So to answer your question, yes I would have asked for the re-run anyway. Whether you or any other player chooses to believe me on that point is of extreme indifference to me.


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*As compared to the version of events which Nick set out to the other players of this group. Which is in fact "a lie"...


[edit]
Dameon wrote: I also wanted to add that in the future, I am going to make sure to send in "revised" orders on turns I may have major battles very close to the deadline so that, if I lose them, hey at least the GM has to give me another shot!
Feel free. As I said earlier, I would like to see GMs forced to run any orders which can be proved to have been sent before the dealine. As I would always hope any revised orders I make would do better for me than the first set I am more than happy to formulate this for the WSC. Can I count on you seconding it for me?

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Post by Dameon » Sat May 01, 2004 12:57 am

Whatever, Korexus. If that TR had come back without your revised orders run, and you had won the city battle by the thinnest of margins, no WAY would you have asked for the rerun. I don't believe it, and if you do you are deluding yourself. Just because Trewqh didn't complain, it DOES NOT change the facts of the case. I also don't believe for a second that Josh would have re-run the turn if Korexus had not asked him too, for as Allister said reruns affect ALL players.

I also do not believe in forcing GMs to run orders sent before the deadline if they do not arrive in time. GMing is a volunteer situation, after all. My favorite GM, believe it or not, is Ben, because he has rules similar to mine and very rarely does reruns. The deadline is for the orders ARRIVING in the GMs box, not for when they are sent. Asking GMs to take their own time to rerun something when it was not their fault that a player's orders didn't get in on time is hardly reasonable.

Trewqh AND Korexus sent in orders before a deadline. But, only Korexus got the rerun. Why? It's simple, because Korexus complained and ergo got special treatment. People can talk about AOF senders and text forms all they want, but the basic facts are the same, and Josh clearly applied a double standard here. I don't believe he did it to be biased, but I do believe he still did it.
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Post by trewqh » Sat May 01, 2004 9:18 am

Dameon wrote:Trewqh AND Korexus sent in orders before a deadline. But, only Korexus got the rerun. Why? It's simple, because Korexus complained and ergo got special treatment. People can talk about AOF senders and text forms all they want, but the basic facts are the same, and Josh clearly applied a double standard here. I don't believe he did it to be biased, but I do believe he still did it.
I came up with another way to show how these situations were different. Dameon, since my orders never reached Josh, then I would have to rewrite them form start. That can not be accpeted. korexus' orders were sent in before he knew what your orders were. According to some of us, and most importantly GM Josh, this makes them valid. That's it.

korexus honestly said he'd ask for a rerun anyway. I trust him, you don 't have to. If I had said my orders were lost in cyberspace, but, honsetly, I sent them, some of the players would have believed me, other wouldn't. That's why being able to prove your honesty is important.

You also missed my question, Dameon. Can you honestly say that you would be against a rerun if you had extremely bad luck during the original run and then read Josh's post about the late arrival of korexus' revised orders?

I trust korexus' word and I will trust yours, because I don't see why I should set double standards.

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Post by Dameon » Sat May 01, 2004 2:17 pm

Trewqh, we all have personal bias here. But, I am against all reruns that happen because a players orders arrived after the deadline, and that much is the truth. Or don't you remember the rerun you did in your game when you missed Yaro's orders? I spoke out to you against that one as well. Although, in that case, it was the GMs fault that his orders were not run, so I could at least understand why you did it and live with it.

Josh made no mistake here, Korexus simply waited too long to send in his revisions. And no, I don't believe that he would have asked for a rerun if he had barely won the city battle. I don't think it is fair that he got another shot at winning such a close battle. Why should he get two chances to win it, when I would have only had one since I didn't send in any last-minute changes? By granting him another chance, Josh stepped over that "impartial observer" role that a GM should fill at all times. Again, I don't believe he did it intentionally or with malice towards me, but he still did it.

Also, if you want some friendly advice Trewqh, I would cc all copies of my orders to myself so if they do get lost, you can just forward them in again. That's what I do, and it has proven useful once or twice. That wouldn't really have helped you here in all likelyhood, but it may in future situations.
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