WOK 5 Online - EWOK or whatever we call it

WOK for Advanced Players

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Aussie Gaz
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WOK 5 Online - EWOK or whatever we call it

Post by Aussie Gaz » Thu May 31, 2007 2:49 pm

Just a update for anyone interested.

Almost finished (I think).

Still to do - Spying phases/orders and opening/closing of the database.

Does anyone out there know how the score is generated (other than in the wok 5 engine)?

I have run a setup turn with version 3.30.7 and I have 10 turn reports with 10 varying high score printouts?

There is not much variation (719 to 712 for the high score and 592 to 601 for the low score) but they should be the same ( I assummed so anyway).

Gaz

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Post by Brykovian » Thu May 31, 2007 3:02 pm

The exact details have always been a mystery to me ... Al never let me see the source code for WOK5. :( And I've never seen it posted in detail form here on the boards.

I would think you could develop your own scoring calculation with the new engine ... there are a lot of different factors to take into account. So, even if players know the "secret" to how scores are calculated, it'll still be only a generalized rating of how a player it doing overall.

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korexus
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Post by korexus » Thu May 31, 2007 3:11 pm

Don't know the exact formula, but it was a bit rubbish anyway. Maybe we should discuss a new one? - And for Standard WoK while we're at it...

It is something like:
POP + 2 * WOK + 4 * LEV * ARM + 20 * DEF + 10 * GCA + 8 * SPY + MAG * TEC + TotalSpellID + WOOD + CORN + GOLD + 3 * DIAMOND + RND(1,100)

where upgraded troops count as ARM, LEV and DEF are averaged over all of the provinces and the random number is a stupid idea introduced by Al to hide players' initial starting spells.

I would suggest:
kill the random number.
give a flat score increase per spell (or mayber per red, white and black spell)
give more weighting to upgraded troops
work out the score for troops per province instead of in total
revisit the weightings given to each amount (especially as I'm not entirely sure I got them right.)
Maybe multiply the whole thing by EFF, to give a better picture of how strong a player is right now.

For anyone interested, the Standard WoK score is done by
POP + 2 * WOK + 4 * LEV * ARM + 20 * DEF + 10 * MIS + 8 * SPY

which takes no account of TEC and doesn't weight LEVed armies enough imho.


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trewqh
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Post by trewqh » Thu May 31, 2007 4:16 pm

Have you thought about remaking the AOF so that it is more user friendly? I mean making it sentence-based like 'Fire [00] GCAs from province [00] on province [00].' instead of just [00][00][00].

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Post by Vortan » Thu May 31, 2007 4:24 pm

From a newbee perspective I think I can probably speak for most other newbees when I say that it would make the first few order submissions a little easier to comprehend.

Any users who dislike number work could find the clinical system used at present quite off putting. Sentences, as suggested would work all round be it for 4 or 5.

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Post by Brykovian » Thu May 31, 2007 4:24 pm

Oh, and btw ... NICE WORK, AG! :D

:2thumbs: :cheers:

Many beers for you! :)

-Bryk
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korexus
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Post by korexus » Thu May 31, 2007 4:35 pm

trewqh wrote:Have you thought about remaking the AOF so that it is more user friendly? I mean making it sentence-based like 'Fire [00] GCAs from province [00] on province [00].' instead of just [00][00][00].
Yes. Last time you suggested it.

What you have to remember is that the game engine strips the brackets, then treats each order as an integer. You do me a script that turns orders in your format to orders which the engine can read and I'll put the SAOF in any format you like.

Although I feel I should point out that orders in this format will take much longer to type as you won't be able to copy/paste from one line to the next like you currently can...


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Post by trewqh » Thu May 31, 2007 4:42 pm

I might be wrong but how about: first bracket * 10000 + second bracket * 100 + third bracket? And the first three brackets make up the first order.

You're right it'd be slower, but if not more user-friendly, then it'd surely be more newbie-friendly.

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Post by Calidus » Thu May 31, 2007 4:52 pm

I only see advantage for the first game, maybe two. After that, it would just be a pain in the...well, you know.

After you have been playing for a little while, you can pretty much do your orders in your sleep. The only place that I need to be able to see what some of the fields are is for WOK5. And then, as long as I just do one section at a time, I can still read the instructions at the top of the order phase.

Once the clans get re-established, and you have training happening in the Clans like it used to, I doubt seriously that there will be many problems, aside from the usual typo.

Just my 2 cents.
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Post by korexus » Thu May 31, 2007 5:06 pm

Also, remember that in Advanced WoK, the same order line can be used to do more than one thing. For example the transform and change aim orders are in the same place. That would make fitting it into a sentence harder.

trewqh: You are right, that's exactly what you need to do. It's just going to be a pain and it will actually make the site less user friendly, so my motivtion to do it is low. A better use of time might be to vamp up the help section on the SAOF, if you really feel that it's too hard to fill in at the moment.

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Post by Saladin » Thu May 31, 2007 5:40 pm

Back to the score issue. Although i tend to profit from the current way of calculating a score (missiles give way too much points and level way too few). I think it would be better to have new calculations like Korexus suggested.
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Post by Saladin » Thu May 31, 2007 5:57 pm

Back to the score issue. Although i tend to profit from the current way of calculating a score (missiles give way too much points and level way too few). I think it would be better to have new calculations like Korexus suggested.
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Post by korexus » Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:38 pm

korexus wrote:A better use of time might be to vamp up the help section on the SAOF, if you really feel that it's too hard to fill in at the moment.
Seriously. Would you like the help section to be in sentence form? Are there any other improvements I could make to it? (Han suggested once that the order number increase by one every time you press enter. I think I know how to do that now.) The whole point of the help was to make orders user friendly without getting in the way of vets...


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Post by trewqh » Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:55 pm

:oops: I forgot about the Help button. Just examined it and I see it serves the same function as the 'sentences'. And the fact that it's not obligatory prevents it from slowing down the vets. :)

Increasing the order number after entering would be nice.

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Post by korexus » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:10 pm

Another thing that Al wanted way back when I started on the SAOF was for it to check if a player's orders made sense. I'm loathe to do the full amount Al was talking about, but I could introduce a range check, so that if a player tries to do something which requires provinces to neighbour between two non-neighbouring provinces, it warns him. Newbies and vets can both make this mistake and it would help make sure players enter the orders they actually mean...

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Post by trewqh » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:15 pm

Go for it! :)

Did you notice you now have more posts than Al? :)

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Post by Saladin » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:27 pm

That is a great idea Korexus, you old Spam King. :)
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Post by korexus » Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:49 pm

Well, I've gt to keep my posts ahead of Sal and trewqh...

The help section now advances the order number by one when you enter an order and it doesn't give an error when you enter the last order in a section!

When orders are added to the database, the form gives them a trial run. This will only notify you if the provinces are out of range (missiles) or non neighbouring (attacks, movements, spy players) but most mistakes in orders probably fall into those catagories.

If the range check fails, you will get a warning and you can press back on your browser to change the numbers.


Chris.


PS, if any of you saw a funny screen while entering orders in the last few hours, you may want to check they got in ok. I had to do some bits of the form by trial and error... (You can check your orders by reloading the SAOF. Whatever orders have been entered show up on the form.)
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Post by Vortan » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:18 am

If I continue at my current post rate I should catch you up by winter 2008 :P

Am I right in assuming that EWOK :lol: (that kills me) is going to be the fully automated version of the game your all playing in Sal's Southern Reaches? If so I reckon I had best re-read, then re-read and finally re-read the rules cos I quite fancy kicking some bott.
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Post by Aussie Gaz » Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:56 pm

Update:

Major programming finished (I think).

I am in the process of converting the maps and inis to the new system.

If everybody can stop suggesting changes to the curent games so that Korexus can concentate on this it would be a great help.

:D

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