The Sanborn Oasis

WOK for Advanced Players

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Dameon
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Post by Dameon » Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:59 pm

Korexus, I have to disagree with you here, I am sorry. I think the sword does cut both ways, and I am willing to respect the player's choice. This may be moot anyway as I'm still at four players for this game without any indication of more waiting to sign up. I feared the market might be oversaturated.....we'll see.
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Post by BigJOzzy » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:23 am

TK please join and show me wrong......... :D

I don't think TFF can stay in one place long enough to keep the center square.

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Post by korexus » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:34 pm

Nick, I am not saying that your rules will make it easier for a specific player to win, just like I said in my last post.

But if a game has an easily attainable win condition then "the sword" works more in favour of people in the game than people not in the game as the players have a chance at getting some VPs for less work than usual. That is why I think everyone should be allowed input, not just the people in the game.

In this case it may not matter, but I'd rather set a precedent for open discussion than against it...


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Post by Dameon » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:08 pm

See, but if it makes it easier for one player to win, it makes it easier for all players in the game to win, so the sword really cuts equally both ways IMO. I mean, you and TK already said as players you'd prefer the 8-city variant, right? I honestly do not think a 6-city rule in this case makes it any easier to win than an 8-city rule does in normal games. As the GM, I obviously have the right to decide the rules, although I am try to be a player's GM and am willing to adjust the rules to a certain degree if that players in the game wish it. I am not willng to put the rules up for a general referendum to the community.
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Post by korexus » Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:18 pm

Ok, everyone. I'm going to open up a new game. It will have an alternative win condition called the "One city rule". The first player to own at least one city will win the game and can claim the 3 VPs. If two or more players both get a city on the same turn, the player who was earlier in the OOP will be allowed to claim the VPs.

General members of the community are not allowed to comment on this decision as you are all insignificant before my greatness. Don't worry though, the game is perfectly fair as it will be just as easy or hard for any player in the game to win under these rules.


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Post by gm_al » Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:40 pm

Ok sign me up Chris. :roll:

*smells a new flamer*

Just watch out for TK now that he is Nicks best buddy and shares backdoors with you !

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Post by Underdog » Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:09 am

I'm in also. And I am sure I can come up with 8 other e-mail addresses to start new names from to fill out the field. (just don't tell anyone I am doing that since it is illegal).

Can't help it but this is his point Nick. If I remember right that was the main purpose of the X-game forum and wasn't there a commitee to ensure all X-Games were actually valid games that deserved VP giving.

I am not sure about all that since I was not very active at the time but I did keep up with things, kinda.

Did the WSC come up with that or what? I don't remember the whole story. If I remember there was a game played that players had a question about whether it was too easy to win. Or wasn't worthy of 3(or2) VP's I don't remember.
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Post by BigJOzzy » Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:24 am

I don't remember that either, my point is just I don't think it matters since these cities are going to be hard to take no matter what.

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Post by Donut » Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:51 am

Chris... I'll only play if Players start in a city. I really like that option.

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Post by Undertaker » Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:17 am

Donut wrote:Chris... I'll only play if Players start in a city. I really like that option.

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Post by BigJOzzy » Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:17 am

I have been thinking about this. We all start in a city with 3 provinces. Now due to the nature of the different province types of the cities and with the added Defense, in the first few rounds the cities will be really hard to take, however, the middle provinces are within everyones reach right from the start. So if this is going to be a quick game it will be the middle provinces that will hold the victory not the 6 cities.

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Post by TK » Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:16 am

Easy VPs.... sign me up Chris.

In fact, thats why I signed up to Nicks game. Someone's gonna get cheap VPs... might as well be me!!!

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Post by Dameon » Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:28 pm

I'm sorry CHris, but if you are too stubborn to realize that it is just as hard to get VPs via the six city rule in Sanborn as it is to get VPs via the eight city rule in another game, then I cannot help you. Can I ask why you think it should be HARDER to win VPs via city control in the Sanborn Oasis? That's not a concept I agree with at all, really, but it is one you seem to be really going for.
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Post by korexus » Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:57 pm

No Nick. What I am going for is that everyone in the community should get a say in whether the game is too easy or not. If you actually read any of my previous 3 posts (or the replies to the most recent one) you might realise that.

One more time then, just for Nick.

In my opinion this game is too easy to win.
I feel that the other members of the community should also be allowed to state their opinions on this. As it is always possible that I am wrong.
I don't think that Only people who sign up for this game should be allowed a say.
I think that every active member of the WoK community should be allowed to point out if any X-Game is too easy, regardless of whether they have time or inclination to sign up for it.

Is any of this getting through to you?

My example wasn't primarily aimed at the rules you have set up for the Sanborn Oasis, but at your attitude that you can set up a game for VPs regardless of the views of the community. If a game is too easy to win, it shouldn't be for VPs and deciding whether a game is too easy to win should be a job for every member before the game even opens.

To answer Underdog's question, the X-Game thread was set up after GM Someone-or-other's Risk game. In which a player (Smashface I believe) got a solo victory after taking out a single player (with help) because of the 'mission cards' which were being used in that game.

As far as I know, no commitee of any sort was set up as it was considered easier and better to let the the community decide on future x-games. Maybe I should get a motion set up for the WSC. There's at least a 50/50 chance that Nick will listen to one of them...
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Post by Dameon » Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:01 pm

Chris, I understand what you are saying. You are saying that we should hold a public referendum on every single rule of every single X-game that any GM wants to run. I get that, really, I do. You think the WOK community should have to vote to support every single X-game that comes out.

The bottom line is, I disagree. YOU haven't been reading any of my posts apparentely, so let me make it clear. I think the players that sign up for any X-game are a representative sample of the WOK community, and will complain about any rule they see as making the game too easy under the premise that it will make the game easy for ANY player to win, not just them. I don't think the entire WOK community needs to have a referendum when the players of the X-game in question are just as capable.

So, Chris, I understand your stance. I simply disagree with it, that's all.
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Post by korexus » Sun Feb 06, 2005 12:45 am

Ok, it would have been nice for you to argue with what I was saying then, but never mind we can get on with that now. :D

Yes, I do think that every X-Game should be considered before it opens. In most cases it doesn't matter much. Just post the idea on the X-Game forum and if anyone spots a problem they can shout up. It's not as though we have so many X-games that that will cause a problem.

If no one complains for say a week then the game can start. - This also gives everyone time to sign up which can't be a bad thing. In most cases if an issue is brought up the GM can probably come to a compromise. Only in very extreme cases would any sort of mass vote or similar have to be arranged :P

Does that really sound so bad? - I think we already agreed on this idea once. We just never made it official...
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Post by Dameon » Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:05 am

Or, I could just post the idea here, and get feedback. The only feedback I got that was perhaps against the rules was the 6-city one, and I told y'all the players could vote on it. I am honestly worried about a community backlash against this, if players are not playing, then why would they want the six-city rule when they can vote the eight-city rule in and make it more difficult to win the game? I personally would rather not see this game run on for like 30 turns and I feel like an eight city rule would make that happen, unless somebody can figure out how to hold onto the vortex that is.
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Post by BigJOzzy » Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:34 am

Alright I have two things to add in here.

1) I don't see any problem with anyone outside, or inside the game complaining about the rules before they start, which is what is happening now. However, I don't think setting up a rule or even different form is needed.
2) Lets face it Nick has already done what is necessary in saying he will take the vote to everyone in the game.

So I say we wait and see what all the players in the game think and we will go from there. And yes if in the mean time others outside the game want to put in there 2 cents worth I am sure they will. However, I don't see anyone outside the players giving any voice to the set problem here so why the hassle.

Massielita
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Post by Duke » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:07 am

Huh? What? Am I missing something? All of you that feels a 6 city win here is easy needs to have you head checked. Have you even looked at the file for this game? I'm signing up here just in spite since I predict that no one will win this until there are only like 3-4 players left and not necessarily due to the city rule.

Put me down representing VO here Nick. I need a clanmate, Bjorn? hmmm no he gets ripped before turn 3 normally. Tbert? Nope, probably in Iraq or something. Strider? Must be guiding some halflings with a ring somewhere cos I havent seen him around in ages.......I guess it has to be Aussie G once again then *sigh* :wink:
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Post by BigJOzzy » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:09 am

Duke good to have someone in the game that can reason out the part about the cities, to bad you won't last long enough in the game to enjoy the fact that you are right..... :D

Massielita
Mathematician is someone who knows that if three people walk into an empty room and five people walk out, then two more people need to walk in to the room to make it empty again.

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