I promise you I really AM open to suggestion! If I offer a counter-argument, eg on increasing-bids, it's definitely not automatic or defensive, OK!?
Tinker wrote:The problem I think Dragonette is having (and I agree with her, even though it's subtle) is that the way the startup was put together is deceptive.
We should have been offered a look at all three starting spots and asked how much we wanted to pay for each of them instead of being given one at the beginning and then put in the position of having to pay to keep it. The end result is the same, but the presentation could be more palatable.
Not a bad idea. If you think it would make it better, clearer, I'll be happy to put in the extra work. But there ARE counter-arguments:
1) The engine currently doesn't allow a GM to do it like that. (Kor won't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong!). The GM normally publishes a blank map (Turn -1) into Games to Join, then fills up player-places, then runs Turn 0, and Turn 0 is out, with players having colours having start-provs. Using edit-player data, I can just about swap over which player+colour starts where, ie swap over the start-provs; and remember to change the OOP to match. What I CAN'T do is run Turn 0 with 10 colours, Turn 0 is out, and then go back and enter new player-names. I tried that once, early in Duels, putting out a Game to Join, scoreboard names being empty, as a come-on, ie "sign up as G/LB/LG or as O/V/Y". Kor got antsy about me bending the system, and HE had to step in to retro-assign player-names after Turn 0 had run... I thought I'd "cleverly" cracked it by running a Turn 0 WITH names, but then swapping over start-provs rather than player-names. But if Kor says yes ...
2) What Kor said on the first page - I was trying to give me/the GM less work! On average, the GM would probably have to swap only 2 of the 3 players?! And if your hunch is correct (I hoped so) that players will be biased towards the colours they are "given", then, great, I have NO work of swapping over!! (Yes, I HAD thought of that!). After all, if it's fairly even, I don't WANT the work of swapping over; it's only there in case it's NOT even, and all want one pair of starts or want to avoid another. By paying.
3) I guess I could go rewrite the bidding rules on Page 1 of this thread. (they talk of swapping positions; and the example I give is on the basis of all preferring
Yond's start ...). But then I think I'd also have to rewrite the main Duel Rules, last section on bidding, to match, and get Kor to republish them. But I can do that.
If it's worth it?
How sure are you that it's better, not worse? I don't accept the argument that the one is gambling and the other is buying. They are both buying, like at an auction. If you want to stay where you are, it's probably that it's an unfairly strong position; so you can only stay there if you are prepared to pay more than the other guys to start with that stronger position.
Clarity? Hmm. You might be right. Not sure. I suspect many people find it easier to study "Yond's position", Hryll's, and their own, and then decide who has the better start, rather than the more "abstract" version of look at G/LB vs LG/O vs V/Y ? Intuitively, they look at their "own" start, see whether it looks good or bad, look at the other guys', decide whether would rather switch ...
NB. You'd be amazed how lazy people are. I have to cater for nearly-all-comers. You are catering for the people like you, who would be happy to analyse equally all 3 possible combinations without bias, and then put in bids. I'm also catering for the ones who would look at what "their" start was, find it acceptable enough, put in a bid of something for it, zero for second choice, never have to pre-analyse two more positions. Eg Duke on a good day.
You suggest:
"...offered a look at all three starting spots and asked how much we wanted to pay for each of them.". That might sound simple to you ...! Er. I'm sure YOU realise that your bid for your third choice ought logically to be zero? If you don't get your first or second preference, why pay anything at all for the one you'll get left with?! But not everyone will see that. So maybe a couple of extra paragraphs explaining it? Or else lots of queries to answer? Tinker, I'm not at all sure that either you or me could word your solution in a way that was shorter and clearer than the system currently is ...?!
If you STILL prefer it, I'll do it if Kor will code for it. You still want it?
BTW, do NOT let this put you off suggesting. I'm glad of the interest, I like talking design, and I know there are areas for improvement.
Cheers,
Han