Announcing a new variant or X-game: TRINITY

[Bjorn]

GO DUKE!

Hero of Valn Ohtar!

[Hannibal]

GO DUKE!

Yeah, I've often muttered that to myself. But perhaps in a different sense. Just kidding!

H

[Hannibal]

Hi guys. I hope we're all having FUN in this hobby of ours, right?

I am hereby voiding that bidding process.

Because Duke unknowingly screwed it by his public bid, favouring Yond and screwing Hryll and the GM. (I'll explain in a separate post if I can be bothered!).

Right, I threatened to explain , and I'm not sleepy yet, so I will. I doubt Duke will read this, but somebody might follow it ... Here goes:

Duke's public posturing of "I don't care, I bid 0 for all!" ruined the bidding process.

You see: Hryll had put in serious bids, secret to GM, bidding fully 68P for LG+Orange, and second choice 10P for Grey+LB.

Duke then cavalierly and flamboyantly celebrates not bothering to read the rules and announces PUBLICLY on the boards that he doesn't care and bids 0 for everything, let's get started. He doesn't realise that this selfish approach seriously disadvantages Hryll, helps Yond a lot, and puts the GM to a lot of thinking and effort...

How? Well, Duke has just TOLD Yond that he is bidding zero and zero. So Yond, not having bid yet, has a huge advantage. Yond knows that he can get his second choice for a bid of just 1Pop, because the worst that can happen, now he knows publicly that Duke is bidding zero and zero, is that he loses on his First bid to Hryll, but is BOUND to get his second choice for only 1 Pop, against Duke's zeroes. So if, if, Yond's prime concern had been "I don't care which of two I get, so long as it's not the third one", he has a huge advantage: bid 1Pop for each, he's bound to get one of them and avoid the one he wanted to avoid! Because he KNOWS Duke is bidding zero-zero in his publicly-announced bid ...

So, Duke's failure to understand (read?) the simple rules on bidding (secretly to the GM), massively helps Yond. Yond went on to bid 5 and 10 Pop; not much different from 1 and 1, getting first or second choice cheaply thanks to Duke going public...

Now look at it from Hryll's POV. When HE bid (before Duke going public with his I don't care, so 0, ) he, Hryll, was understandably expecting that all 3 players would put in secret bids; he was up against 2 secret-bidders; he'd better bid his max. So he went high to get it/them. Yond didn't need to go high. Thanks to Duke, Yond could let Hryll pay high for a choice he thought was versus two others, whilst he, Yond, gets either of his two preferred for almost nothing. Unfair on Hryll. Unfair advantage to Yond. Thanks to Duke.

Now look at it from the GM's POV?:

I can see that Duke not bothering to read the rules, never mind follow them, and selfishly thinking he can just go public with his disdain for bothering with bids, and publicly bid zeroes, has screwed up the bidding, unfair on Hryll. OK, what do I as GM do?!

OK, what I as GM SHOULD do is generously repeat the rules to Duke; and point out that his macho stance on living with the rules later if they affect him, is selfish and spoils it for the GM and his fellow-players? And obviously I need to tell (and explain!!) Hryll that his good-faith bids have been ruined by Duke's public bid, such that Yond will get his preferences cheaply, while Hryll will have paid his max ... Unfair on Hryll. Duke helping Yond ...

Ah, I'm the GM. I should declare current bids void, and go to the trouble of mailing/explaining to Hryll why his earlier bids don't count and he has to start over. (gee, thanks, Duke!). Explaining to Hryll that (and WHY) he has the right to submit new bids, thanks to Duke. Oh, and also a mail to Yond, to explain that he cannot now submit bids, because Duke has screwed it, so I'd be voiding your bid; or, if you haven't submitted a bid yet, hold on till I void current bids and re-start the one round of bidding.

For all watchers: this is NOT the fault of bidding. That takes one round, a few hours. It only blows up if some players don't even read the simple bidding rules, and blow it for everyone.

I just couldn't be bothered to explain to Hryll why he had to go again though he'd done it right; to Yond, catering for the option where he HAD just submitted or hadn't yet; and to Duke, trying to explain how he'd screwed up, cheated on Hryll, and made the GM's life a pain.

Hey, Duke, I luvya, and your no-bullshit approach is usually refreshing. But bear in mind that if you are macho and relaxed and decline to read or follow the rules until you're in there fighting, you just might cause a huge mess that the blows it for other players and leaves a mess for the GM to try to clean up? And delays the start? SO ironic that YOU are the one who asks why the start is taking so long... It's YOU!

Right. I hope y'all noticed that I ran the next/first turn on Trinity #01 before going into this stuff? So I actioned the turn before moaning at people not doing it as the GM calls it. It was a close call.

GM Han

[Brykovian]

GM Chris ... Where does Trinity #2 stand ... Are we waiting on bids yet? Or are we ready to roll?

-Bryk

[korexus]

@Han. I very much doubt you'll be able to stop the occaisonal posting of publec bids. Even without people doing so because they don't like the bidding system, you'll have people making them as a form of bragging. The simple solution is to knock a post up as GM along the lines of "Of course, N may be bluffing, only his SECRET bid will be taken seriously". The simplest solution would be not to use a bidding system...

@Bryk. I'm still waiting on Dragonette's bid. As I mentioned, I'm happy to put her down as 0/0, but I'd like to hear about it from her first...


Chris.

[Duke]

Oh man. I havent got this much attention since that time in the army when I ordered the guys who drove the MTLB to take me to the Burger King drive-thru only to meet our senior officer at the gas station next to Burger King. We freaked out and accidently ran over and completely crushed that Burgler guy on in our attemt to escape unnoticed.

To the situation at hand. Well, I do stand corrected about my public bid and the result of it. Wasnt thinking and I seriously didnt this would be the result of my "dont give a crap" attitude towards the bidding thing. I apologize.

However, I did get in line and placed a secret bid. All according to the rules. You didnt read close enough. My first bid was for my position and my second one was for the position of whoever was player 1 and 2. I just didnt care who that player was but as I go and check it turns out to be Yon.

I get the whole bidding thing now. Will do as I am told next time, still wont care...wait, I shouldnt say that since it will screw up that bidding as well, right? Anyway if Hryll would have payed 168 pop for his spot he would have been screwed from the get go here so look at it this way, I saved him from his own stupidity.

Oh, and you wrote "bear". I wrote that in my englishtests in school for about 6 years before I got that right and everytime my teacher drew a little teddybear next to that word. At the end he used stickers. I am off point again....

Anyway, the gameidea is still good and we are off so all is well in the state of Kaomaris I guess or is something still rotten?

[korexus]

all is well in the state of Kaomaris I guess or is something still rotten?

*There is nothing rotten in Kaomaris.*

*Daniel Melin, please report for reprogramming*

*There is nothing rotten in Kaomaris.*

[Hannibal]

@Duke. Thanks, mate.

[Hannibal]

That's genuine, by the way, not ironic or anything, OK?

[Duke]

Allrighty. (This is where Raw would mock us in some derogatory fashion)

[Hannibal]

Regardless, Han, I think it's time to put your foot down for now: Is bidding for positions an official rule of the Trinity game? If so, then let's bid and get on with it. (Dragonette, if you look earlier in this thread you'll see that bidding was posted as being part of the Trinity test.)

Right, I'm putting my tiny foot down and declaring that, finally, definitely, indisputably, undoubtedly, irrevocably, irreversibly, unalterably and immutably ................... bidding in Trinity is entirely optional for the GM

Just like in Duels.

I've GMed lots of Duels, and only used bidding 2 or 3 times. Eg when it's a Grand Final, so I want it as fair as poss, as in the current Duel-Lite between Aussie G and Trewqh, and it worked fine.

I might tend to use it MORE in Trinity (if we ever play it again). That's because I can put in the work and re-runs to make a new Duel more or less even between TWO humans, as far as I can tell; but it's too darned hard for the GM to check that a Trinity looks fairly even between THREE humans, maybe pressing re-run 20 times till settling for a start that looks pretty even... Too much to expect from your poor GM!

And I think I'll always use the formula I've started using in Duels: "I hope it's fair, pretty even, and interesting. If either (any) of you think it starts out unfair, then mail me, and I'll scrap it and create a fresh start, or else tweak it, or have you bid for which side." I the GM get to choose which. Maybe I can't see a tweak of just moving that Robo ... Maybe I don't care to scrap it and re-run a new start, which might be equally unfair and get similarly objected to ... Maybe they just bid to pay for the better start, to equalise it that way ... There's no doubt which of these options is easier for the poor GM!! Oh, I guess there's also the option of: "Live with it!", but that sounds unfair on the guy who reckoned he got a lousy start, and he might hate playing it out, or might quit...

So, BTW, this means I'll only accept, as GM, people who are PREPARED to bid if it comes to it. People who would refuse that are making my GM life impossible if one player says his start is unfair to him, and the other will refuse to solve it by bidding. Right?? (Help me here, Bryk?)

But: bidding is optional for the GM, not an automatic part of Trinity.

So, in case it matters, I have NO PROBLEM if Kor chooses to scrap bidding in Trinity 2. (Mind you, I'd hate to be the one who ended up with ...maybe I'd better not say which!).

That MUST sound fair and reasonable, right? Please?

Han

[korexus]

I'll just ask players to say what they prefer when signing up. If there is a preference for or against bidding before turn 0 runs, then it's fair to stick with it after. If players don't have a preference, they'll get stuck with the majority vote (which oculd be 1). If they do and it's different, then I'll suggest they play different people.

Most Duels come about because two players decide they want one and a GM sets it up (unlike normal WoK games which are the other way round) so it shouldn't be too difficult to do it this way.


Chris.

[trewqh]

Common sense prevails in Kaomaris = there's nothing rotten.

[Hannibal]

I'll just ask players to say what they prefer when signing up. ... If players don't have a preference, they'll get stuck with the majority vote (which oculd be 1). If they do and it's different, then I'll suggest they play different people.

Chris.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd be too keen on this "voting system" of yours before sign-ups are even accepted ... It sounds a bit needless and complicated to my ears...

H

[korexus]

Just a case of a player saying "who fancies a game of Trinity with bidding?" Hardly the most complex situation.

Although I agree, it would be much simpler, nicer and more fun to scrap the whole thing...


Chris.

[Hannibal]

Just a case of a player saying "who fancies a game of Trinity with bidding?" Hardly the most complex situation.

Chris.

That's VERY different from what you proposed above? Where you said something about asking preferences once they've provisionally signed up? ... and then holding some kind of vote? ... with rules for abstentions and majority can be one vote? ... and a facility for backing out if you then disagree with the majority vote? VERY different from the way you just summarised it ...!

Hey, we are having fun bantering, right? No aggro or offence, right?

Han

[korexus]

It's not different, it's just that I tried to Han-proof it the first time. (I know that you won't accept anything which seems simple or elegant! )

The line

Most Duels come about because two players decide they want one and a GM sets it up so it shouldn't be too difficult to do it this way.

was attempting to show that it would be easy.

Worst case as I see it.

Han: I want a game of Trinity:
Duke: Ok, I'll play, anyone else?
Hryll: I'm in. Now we need a GM.
Chris: I'll run it if you like. Do you guys want to use the bidding system?
Han, Duke and Hryll state their preferance.

Within 7 posts, we know how and if the game is going to start, with minimal effort on everyone's part. It goes back to that common sense thing that trewqh was talking about.


Chris.

[Hryllantre]

Anyway if Hryll would have payed 168 pop for his spot he would have been screwed from the get go here so look at it this way, I saved him from his own stupidity.

I'm not normally pedantic but I'll make this the exception. I bid 68 for each so 68+68= (any ideas Duke ).

It was a valid bid as the central positioning allowed me to see how turn 1 played out, whilst only allowing one player (Yon's Grey) the opportunity to clash with me as #39 (Greens) is a starting province. Oh and ofc 37, 38 and 39 we're by far the highest populated provinces.

If you look at Oranges home province the starting pop was 97 so add .2 to that (97+19=116-68=48.) 48 gives you 12 armies which is why it was the highest pausible bid to secure the 3 highest populated provinces...

So there

and just so you all know you cannot follow the number 8 with a bracket bc this happens that's why the . is there...

[Duke]

I'm a salesman. I am used to adding in a bit of an odd way.

I'll be hitting you over the head with that monkey-arse before this game is over....

[Hryllantre]

Oh and before I forget.

The best thing about having your starting province (protected by a tank) on it's own island is that you are defended for two turns but you can launch attacks from it whenever you choose.

Be very careful Duke as the OOP says I'm gonna nick all your newly claimed provinces