WSC Vote 22

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WSC Vote 22

Post by Dameon » Sun May 09, 2004 3:27 pm

Members of the WOK Community,

The WSC just voted on the proposal TK brought up, and it passed unanimously. From now on, all WOK games will have their own individual HiScores, although Kaohalla and all clan scores will remain combined. Plus, each game will have it's own Champs match, and players are welcome to play in as many of those as they qualify for. Contact your clan reperesentitive, or check out the WSC page, if you want further details.
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Post by Saladin » Sun May 09, 2004 5:29 pm

Does this include WOK: Species Nick? Do they get added to Kaohalla as well?
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Post by Dameon » Sun May 09, 2004 7:46 pm

As of yet, WOK: Species is not worth any VPs, obviously. When the WSC gets together and decides to assign a VP total to Species, then there will be a Species HiScore, a Species Champs game, and yes, the Species VPs will go towards both Kaohalla and Clan Score. It's really too early to determine how many VPs a Species game is going to be worth at this point, but when it does get decided it will be treated just like WOK 4 and 5.
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Post by ThinKing » Sun May 09, 2004 9:41 pm

Does anyone actually want Species to contribute to any of the score charts? I know I dont. Its just so different to WOK4 and WOK5. I think it needs its own scoring system.

Anyone else?

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Post by Saladin » Sun May 09, 2004 10:45 pm

And again i agree with TK, it's starting to become a habbit. :D
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Post by GoatHerder » Mon May 10, 2004 1:03 am

Gone wrote:Does anyone actually want Species to contribute to any of the score charts? I know I dont. Its just so different to WOK4 and WOK5. I think it needs its own scoring system.

Anyone else?
I don't see any reason why it shouldn't. What about if WOK_MW ever happens to be finished? Should that go to Kaohalla? Like WOK_SP, it too would also be totally different to WOK4 & 5. OK- it might be fought on a 2 dimensional map with different types of terrain like WOK5, but apart from that it would be totally different. BUT if that ever eventuates, then I think it should contribute toward Kaohalla, and I see no reason why WOK_SP shouldn't either.

WOK is not just a community of people, it a community of games -- and it doesn't necessarily have to be restricted to fantasy wargames. I reckon include them all! :3dancers:

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Post by Dameon » Mon May 10, 2004 2:48 am

Well, it is very different, but at the same time it is still a strategy game. And, as GH said, there may be more WOK games in the future that come out that are not of the WOK 4/5 template. One thing I will say is that I want to be very careful how many VPs we make a Species game worth, since they are going to be much shorter than WOK 4/5 games overall. With the info I have now I'd say Species games should be only worth 1 VP if anything, but let's wait until we have a final version before taking any votes on it.
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Post by Donut » Mon May 10, 2004 3:34 am

I'm so glad I dabbled on these before the weekend hit.

Here's the tentative pages... I say tentative cause the VP count may be wrong.

http://people.msoe.edu/~jorgensj/wok4hiscore.htm
http://people.msoe.edu/~jorgensj/wok5hiscore.htm

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Post by Saladin » Mon May 10, 2004 8:41 am

No the point is that with Wok 4 and 5 and the future WOK: MW you have to be a member of our community and a member of a clan to be able to play. This is not so with Species.
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Post by korexus » Mon May 10, 2004 11:43 am

Dameon wrote:<snip> since they are going to be much shorter than WOK 4/5 games overall.
Really? You reckon?
Admittedly it will take up a shorter length of real time. But is that an excuse to reduce the VPs awarded for speed games?
No, for the simple reason that a speed game is more intense. - You send less amount of days playing the game, but the same amount of time filling in orders. People playing species are likely to be making at least som orders for pretty much every day of the game, making the "density" of game play much higher.

As I said on the WSC mail list, I'm not sure how many VPs this should be worth yet and I've spent a lot of time thinking about the game over the last few months. So I think it's a bit early to be guessing numbers as yet...

Saladin wrote: No the point is that with Wok 4 and 5 and the future WOK: MW you have to be a member of our community and a member of a clan to be able to play. This is not so with Species.
That's not really true. (As far as I am aware) People will have to sign up through the Kaobase 2 to play the "online" version of species. That means they'll have to come through this site to play and will probably find their way to the boards in a pretty short space of time. Of course a lot of people currently "in our community" don't really say much either so I don't think this will be a problem really.

So overall, I would say that species VPs (when we decide how many they should be) should be added to kaohalla. It's not as though it's a completely accurate way of saying who's the best anyway. It's more a measure of who's been around the longest. The overall trend is that people at the top are better, but more so it's that the people at the top are respected as the "big names" around WoK. If someone comes along and plays only WoK Species and manages to get towards the top of kaohalla, I feel the same thing should apply.


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PS, sorry if that made no sense. I'm talking to Al with one half of my brain and doing stats with another. Leaving not much left for thinking about how to phrase this post...
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Post by gm_al » Mon May 10, 2004 11:52 am

Of course once things are set you will need to be part of a WOK Clan in order to play WOK SP.

We just started to outline K2, its not fully functional yet. But as a community of WOK gamers every game in this universe should contribute towards Kaohalla.

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Post by Saladin » Mon May 10, 2004 12:02 pm

I'm not really concerned about Kaohalla, like you said that doesn't really have meaning. It's more the clan champs and such

People who play Species don't have to be part of a clan. Right now we ask of all new players that they join a clan as it's not allowed to play in a game as a newbie if you're not part of a clan. For species this is not the case, so species should have nothing to do with the clan champs at all.
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Post by korexus » Mon May 10, 2004 1:51 pm

Ok, I know my post might not have made all that much sense. But I'm pretty sure this makes even less!

"People can play this game without being a member of a clan" applies to any WoK game. Why should it make a difference if newbies can play without being a member?

You don't say that since mercs can play WoK 5 then WoK 5 VPs shouldn't count to clan highscore. We say that merc VPs don't count. This would be exactly the same. A player plays Species without being a member of a clan, and they don't count to clan highscore. Simple.

The argument that Species is very different and so shouldn't count towards which clans make it to a combined champs certainly needs considering. Whether or not specific players are in a clan is irrelevant...


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Post by Donut » Mon May 10, 2004 2:24 pm

My only concern would be that the number of species games could be very great with the little amount of work required from a GM. This could potentially flood the Kaohalla, making WOK4/5 VP's obsolete. I don't see this happening but I could definitely see someone who strictly plays SP for a few months to gather the same, if not more VP's than those that have been around here for quite some time. No the kaohalla isn't a true test of How good a player is in many senses or does it really mean anything, but I'm sure that Massie and Eggy take pride in being the top players on that list.

It also comes down to the work involved (I think I mentioned this in the WSC e-mails too). SP seems to be more physical work but I don't think it takes as much planning, diplomacy, or strategy. As it is now, the main goal is to stay alive and build; attacking another player doesn't really help your position in the game.

The question also comes up whether or not to add SP VP's to the clan hiscores... If we do than the clans will be able to chose between WOK4/5/SP for the clan champs. Are there going to be many players that go strictly SP? How many will not be playing SP? It'd be very possible for a clan of SP players to face a clan of WOK4/5 players; this wouldn't make for a very interesting Clan Champs.

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Post by Saladin » Mon May 10, 2004 2:38 pm

Lol Korexus. :D What i mean is that ALL new players in wok have to join a clan. It's a rule...you can't start as a mercenary in wok. With WOK: Species this is not the case. :D
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Post by korexus » Mon May 10, 2004 3:48 pm

Sal, I know what you were saying, all I'm doing is pointing out that your point is irrelavant... :P


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Post by Dameon » Mon May 10, 2004 7:57 pm

I have to agree with Josh here on the skillsets necessary to win a WOK SP game as opposed to WOK 4 or WOK 5 right now. Frankly, diplomacy is key to WOK 4 and 5, and you really won't need nearly as much diplomacy in a Species game. It really also doesn't take as much strategy to win a Species game either, IMO, once you understand the basics then it's pretty easy from there.

I still think that Species VPs should count towards Kaohalla/clan score/etc, because it is a WOK game. I share Josh's concerns about Species VPs possibly flooding the score charts though, considering it takes almost no GM effort to run and finishes in less than a month (using the 1000 turns/week speed we do now, and assuming no more than 4000 turns in a game at absolute max, possibly as few as 2000). Even if you spend "more time" in those 2-4 weeks filling in orders, it's the same orders over and over and over again- there simply isn't as much variety (or, IMO, skill) as there is in a typical WOK game. That's why I'd be more in favor of a lower VP yield for Species games, although like Korexus, I realize it is still too early to vote for any particular total yet.

And Sal, Al laid it out pretty simply- yes, new players who want to play Species Online are going to need to join a clan. This may lead to an influx of new players to the WOK Community, which can be both good or bad depending on how it handled. I've seen lots of "online" games and communities go seriously to pot because of the large number of players, and I'd hate to see that happen here. I've also seen some online communities that manage to stay together well no matter how large the player base is. A lot of burden in keeping WOK how it is now is going to fall on clan heads- we'll see where it takes us.
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Post by Donut » Mon May 10, 2004 8:03 pm

I think that if we are going to hold true to the everyplayer who plays in WOK needs to be in a clan, we should start now. There are a few SP players who are not in a clan as we speak; Yngvarr, killerbee (as far as I know), and hamster are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I think at least 2 of them are with Al working on the mobile version but we should definitely set a precident.

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