There's Something Rotten in Kaomaris....

Bjorn · Post by **Bjorn** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:25 pm

The party I really feel for in this situation is the GM. No good deed goes unpunished, eh Taker? I suspect that he is in the uncomfortable position of seeing all the turn reports, knows what is going on but got blindsided by the "sudden death" victory being claimed by Nesty/Massie. TK probably has a solid position, as he ran me out of this game in two turns. He may even be correct in that, given the time, he could run both Massie and Nesty off of the map.

I happen to like the 8 city rule. It gives players in an intesting option when considering ways to win the game. It also gives the player or alliance in the lead something to think about. You can't just go around with army groups crushing your opponents and ignoring your cities. You need to ensure that they are garrisoned to make your enemies fight for them. You would think that Stock Limit concerns would lead people to garrison their cities. I find the possibility of two weaker players plotting together to get eight cities between them on a single turn to steal the win a very interesting aspect of the game. If that rule is in effect you can be sure that you won't find any of my cities within reach of the enemy without some defenders.

Having said this, the real question here is about who knew what and when. Again, I take exception to what several people have posted here about the responsibilities of the GM. In any game I have played, I join it with the understanding that any ruling made by the GM is fine with me. He is the "Game Master" and we all get to play due to the GMs unfailing commitment to the game. I can honestly state that I would never take a GM ruling in a game to the GMC. If I suspected the GM was up to no good, (yes, I do remember the previous thread with this title) I would accept the decision, but probably never sign up to play with that GM again. In days of old, a really good game of D&D required a really good DM. If the Dungeon Master was good, he had no problems getting players to venture into his dungeon. If a GM is good, he will have no problem finding players.

A GM will often be placed in a situation where he must make a ruling that will please some and upset others. Turn reruns are the usual case. In these cases the GM has to do what he believes is 'fair' and keep the game rolling. Rules lawyers may quit the game and/or Kaomaris if they don't get the result they want, but most players I have met are usually willing to live with the GM decision.

Having been involved with this game I would have to agree that TK has played a great game. It would be a shame to see him deprived of VPs after successfully fighting just about everyone except Saladin (who Bryk dispatched) and his clan partner Bryk. On the other hand, you have to give credit to Nesty and Massie for finding a weakness to exploit and making the desperation move.

It sounds like the GM took this to the GMC and a decision has been made. Like all such decisions it will be approved by some and despised by others. Like judges, there are those who will make their decision based only on technical merit and others who will 'bend' the text a bit if they believe an injustice has been done. If you believe the decision was the wrong one, then campaign to be elected to the GMC next year.

Or you can quit Kaomaris. But what fun is it to pick up your toys and leave the sandbox?

Undertaker · Post by **Undertaker** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:57 pm

Hannibal wrote: (I think that the 2 GM's got off lightly for a poor handover - that should antagonise a couple more!)

Like what? Fire me? Cut my pay?

This mess is my fault and as a GM, I think my mistake had too much influence on the way the game was played. (by one player, at least)

I had fully intended to use my rules and for whatever reason, I failed to contact the players. But I don't think anyone should be penalized for noticing or not noticing the change.

I believe the fair way to resolve this would be to award one VP apiece to each Massie, Nesty and TK. I mentioned this to the GMC, but only Nick gave his opinion on it.

Post by **Hannibal** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:29 pm

Fair points. My remark was only in passing, not my main point. We all owe the GM's for GM'ing. I apologise

Undertaker · Post by **Undertaker** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:03 pm

Undertaker wrote: I believe the fair way to resolve this would be to award one VP apiece to each Massie, Nesty and TK. I mentioned this to the GMC, but only Nick gave his opinion on it.

C'mon, where's all the noise about this idea?

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:37 pm

Well i did reply to that suggestion before.

Well i believe that the whole discussion was closed after was decided wether or not the original rules were still in place.

However i'll put it up for a vote again in the WSC to see if opinions have changed about this.

Post by **ThinKing** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:43 pm

Undertaker wrote:
Undertaker wrote: I believe the fair way to resolve this would be to award one VP apiece to each Massie, Nesty and TK. I mentioned this to the GMC, but only Nick gave his opinion on it.
C'mon, where's all the noise about this idea?

Well I would still be unhappy but it would be better than nothing.

TK

Post by **ThinKing** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:45 pm

Egbert wrote:I am saying that there should be a general rule that a person on the GMC should not participate in any decision which "involves" the GMC member. I agree that it is unclear as to whether this decision "involves" you --- this has nothing to do with how you feel about TK, only that it involves a game that was originally GM'd by you and governed by your rules. It is a tough call.

For those who didnt see the game page, Saladin was also in this game. In fact he fought Bryk (my ally) early on, with the help of Massi and Allister (my enemies).

Hmmm...

TK

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:14 pm

Yeah and i was the only one playing the game right!

A WHEEL OF TIME game and nobody play acting at all.

Anyway, Bryk and i had a fun fight with Bryk ripping me in the end, which i have to say was very well done.

Post by **Dameon** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:28 pm

TK I am getting sick and tired of your innuendos! Just because the GMC didn't decide in your favor you throw a fit and start whining about those of us on the committee. It's one thing to disagree with us and quite another to start questioning our impartiality. You disgust me!

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:16 am

There's really only one true Kaomarian way to solve this -- replay the game for double the VP's!!!!!

Anyone?

Nestalawe · Post by **Nestalawe** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:36 am

He heh, I quite like Saladin's suggestion

Indeed I believe we were playing different games, I always had in the back of my mind the 8-city win rule, whereas TK did not. Thus our tactics were very different, and I would have played a different game had I thought the rules were different.

I think TK should get some recognistion for his prowess in this game, but at the same time, I have been shafted in more than a few games where I have not recieved any compensation, or I have not asked for it. Situations were different, but still.

Its all just messy, and no-one created this on purpose. I definately don't want Taker to take any flak, as it was an honest oversight, and he has done a great job in GMing and for picking up the game in the first place.

Warped Angel · Post by **Warped Angel** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:32 pm

Man you guys maybe need to refocus on why you started playing WOK in the first place. The fun of playing not to squabble over VP's. Maybe stepping back and trying to enjoy the game and not care so much about your score cards would be a refreshing change. My 2 cents which I am sure will be ignored.

Post by **Duke** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 8:44 am

All I have to say is that if I would be TK I would have raised more hell then this. Although I would have been suspicious about the switch in rules if I known that such a switch actually took place.

Nothing personal towards anyone.

Post by **ThinKing** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:19 pm

Thanks Duke.

Where were you when I needed you?

Unfortunately raising hell doesnt appear to do any good so the best thing for everyone is just if I leave. Maybe I can win the Champs first though.

Yeah, I dont think so either.

TK

Lowebb · Post by **Lowebb** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:48 pm

With the little time I have these days its always good to look for an uproaring thread

Dameon dont kid yourself, you'd do anything to screw TK and many others in kaomaris. No.1 is all that you care about

Impartial my a s s

Your friend .....

X-Wing

Post by **Egbert** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:59 pm

X-Wing, you're alive! Good to hear from you.

Post by **ThinKing** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:14 am

Thanks Ben. Nice to see a player with balls back in town.

Post by **ThinKing** » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:18 am

Oh and for anyone following this saga, it appears that certain decision-makers were not told some key facts about the game in question.

Now who saw that coming...?

Post by **Dameon** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:57 am

TK, you never filed a complaint with the GMC. In fact, we never officially made any decision here, except to advise Taker when he came to us. The simple fact is Taker couldn't award a 3-way split in light of the circumstances because the players did not agree to it. If Nesty and Massie did, then you'd have 1 VP right now- obviously they did not.

In any case, no GM can award VPs without complete player agreement. Now, obviously you didn't agree with Taker's decision, which means you COULD file an official complaint with the GMC. If there are facts that Taker left out (which I find hard to believe) or was not aware of (possible) then we can review your case. However, do realize that unless these facts have some bearing on the implementation of the 8-city rule, they aren't likely to have an effect on what to this point has been our opinion/advice.

Undertaker · Post by **Undertaker** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:04 pm

Thin_King wrote:Oh and for anyone following this saga, it appears that certain decision-makers were not told some key facts about the game in question.

Now who saw that coming...?

What is that supposed to mean?