TO: Egbert

Talk about the two player Standard WoK variant

Moderators: trewqh, korexus, Hannibal

User avatar
Hannibal
Commander
Commander
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:00 am
Location: London and The Vulkings Clan.............(started in Valn Ohtar, then jointly founded The Vulkings)

Post by Hannibal » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:53 pm

korexus wrote:Han, sometimes its fun to play from the weaker side. I guarantee you that Egbert won't complain about the setup after the game.

korexus.
On an only-slightly-more-serious-note, only SLIGHTLY:

Hey, you're trying to point this out to me?! I've enjoyed such a challenge myself a few times! Both Standard and Duel. I hate it when people say they'd actually prefer an easy ride to a VP...

But here, you're only looking at it (or, yep, got it, mediating), from the POV of the player. OK, I guess the GM should (so I will), go with the players whenever possible.

But you only stressed the secondary point I made, which was a bit of a throwaway secondary point, teasing. The primary point was to help the poor GM to check for fairness, if only as courtesy to the GM GM'ing a Duel, which is not easy to set up fairly. Hmm. Believe me, setting up a Duel as even and interesting is not easy. See the 4 pages on GM'ing Duels that Egbert perhaps confused with elongating the Rules ...

Me, I only spend 1 -10 mins checking a set-up to see that it looks interesting (Robos doing something that affects things); Robos being net available to botrh humans (so that it's a battle, not a parallel race, Kor), the humans being fairly even when you balance start-pops vs position in respect of 2-on-1's vs position in respect of Robos ... and Robo-collisions vs the Turn 1 OOP. Not easy.

The GM can get tired of rejecting 14 starts, and lean towards accepting the 15th. And spends max 5 or 10 mins checking that 15th for fairness. The GM can easily get that wrong in a way he hadn't spotted; Trewqh pointed out that my Lite Semis were initially too much in favour of one side (Trewq's side), so I amended the start. I THOUGHT I'd made the Yondallus/Tinker Duel equal, but it was unequal in a hard-to-anticipate way: they could both go for an equal 50/50 on Turn 1: but, because of naps and Robos, that 50/50 would be no-great-pain to Yondallus if HE lost, but disaster (ish) for Tinker if HE lost ...

My point is: I'm not bad at spotting a fair start rather than leave it to chance; and I put in a fair amount of effort, to avoid blowing a Duel as unfair-from-the-start; but even *I* still get it wrong!

The players, looking at their T1 position, or their bid, look more deeply than I do in 5-10 mins per map-start. SO: my safety-net is that the either of the players, working out their orders or bids, will let me know if they spot an inequality I missed?

So, it's not really about one player throwing away later that he had a tougher start. It's about the players helping the GM to check that a Duel is equal. Which is why I asked the players to have a look and let me know if it looks uneven? I'm supposed to explain all the above? Or just ask them to have a look and tell me if it looks uneven..

Kor, you might well say that a PLAYER sometimes relishes a challenge, and might be happy to risk an unequal start. That doesn't mean that the GM is equally happy to kick off a Duel with an unequal start. Nor perhaps the other player being thus condescended to?! :wink:

Anyway, it's all good. I just thought my points would make sense. As you know, I'd rather concede than continue an argument.

No big deal, just interesting points of debate. We are off and running. Everybody have fun!

H
Last edited by Hannibal on Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There are two ways to write: Short-hand, and Long-Han'ed. ~ Han

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs"......... it's probably just that you're the last person to appreciate the enormity of the catastrophe about to

User avatar
Duke
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1699
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Sweden, Valn Ohtar

Post by Duke » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:23 pm

Did anyone besides me read through that whole thing? :wink:

I do agree with what you wrote however.
First one here, last one to leave.

User avatar
Brykovian
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA ... Clan: Scholars
Contact:

Post by Brykovian » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:03 pm

Duke wrote:Did anyone besides me read through that whole thing?
I did.

-Bryk
Matt Worden Games ... Gem Raider, DareBase, Castle Danger, Keeps & Moats Chess

User avatar
Duke
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1699
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Sweden, Valn Ohtar

Post by Duke » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:10 pm

That is because you dont have a real life... :wink:
First one here, last one to leave.

User avatar
Duke
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1699
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Sweden, Valn Ohtar

Post by Duke » Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:23 pm

pssst. Bryk, that was a lay-up. Dunk it!
First one here, last one to leave.

User avatar
Egbert
Commander
Commander
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: The Scholars' Library (dusty section)
Contact:

Post by Egbert » Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:28 pm

:x

------ Phase II: Attacking ------
You have 0 Tech Points. This allows you to use 3 Attacks.
>> ORDER 12-20-12 <<
You attack province 20 with 12 armies with a level of 1.750
This province is a neutral
PATT is 17.150
The enemy has 7 troops at a level of 1.000.
The defenses of the province are at 0.5.
The enemy's PDEF is 9.000.
PATT PDEF AT DF RES [ FIGHT FOR PROVINCE 20 ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
17.150 9.000 11 1 + ATTACKER WINS
17.150 9.000 16 9 + ATTACKER WINS
17.150 9.000 16 2 + ATTACKER WINS
17.150 9.000 7 1 + ATTACKER WINS
17.150 9.000 14 2 + ATTACKER WINS
17.150 9.000 7 4 + ATTACKER WINS
17.150 9.000 0 4 - DEFENDER WINS
17.150 9.000 6 6 = IT'S A DRAW =
17.150 9.000 4 8 - DEFENDER WINS
17.150 9.000 2 3 - DEFENDER WINS
17.150 9.000 0 0 = IT'S A DRAW =
17.150 9.000 7 9 - DEFENDER WINS
17.150 9.000 4 8 - DEFENDER WINS
17.150 9.000 17 2 + ATTACKER WINS
You have won the battle! 7 armies take province 20!
The level of your troops is raised by 14 X 0.006 to 1.834.
You now own province 20!
#ID NAME POP WOK AIM ARM LEVEL DEF MI SP
==========================================================
20 Latige 91 12 DEF 7 1.834 0.7 0 0
==========================================================
>> ORDER 20-18-12 <<
You only have 7 armies to attack with!
You attack province 18 with 7 armies with a level of 1.834
This province is a neutral
PATT is 17.973
The enemy has 7 troops at a level of 1.000.
The defenses of the province are at 0.5.
The enemy's PDEF is 9.000.
PATT PDEF AT DF RES [ FIGHT FOR PROVINCE 18 ]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
17.973 9.000 1 9 - DEFENDER WINS
17.973 9.000 8 4 + ATTACKER WINS
17.973 9.000 9 9 = IT'S A DRAW =
17.973 9.000 15 5 + ATTACKER WINS
17.973 9.000 2 3 - DEFENDER WINS
17.973 9.000 4 7 - DEFENDER WINS
17.973 9.000 5 7 - DEFENDER WINS
17.973 9.000 13 6 + ATTACKER WINS
17.973 9.000 0 4 - DEFENDER WINS
17.973 9.000 17 7 + ATTACKER WINS
---------The defenses lost 0.1 points!---------
17.973 8.700 17 7 + ATTACKER WINS
17.973 8.700 1 3 - DEFENDER WINS
17.973 8.700 11 7 + ATTACKER WINS
17.973 8.700 4 6 - DEFENDER WINS
You have lost the battle! 1 armies troops remain.
"Fairy tales can come true,
They can happen to you,
If you're young at heart."

Hryllantre
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 441
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:00 am
Location: Le Bas Coreil

Post by Hryllantre » Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:21 pm

The very same thing happened to me in my running Duel match against Han when 6 neutral armies remained in the 2nd province. Ofc Han being the good sport he is got the turn re-run.

Unfortunately for you Egbert I hear Duke is soo mean so it's probably not worth asking :twisted:...

User avatar
Duke
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1699
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Sweden, Valn Ohtar

Post by Duke » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:51 am

Nope. Re-runs due to bad luck is not accepted.
First one here, last one to leave.

User avatar
Bjorn
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 411
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Long Island, New York
Contact:

The Duke, every neutrals friend.

Post by Bjorn » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:26 am

I recall my very first WOK IV game, where my initial attack against the first neutral failed. I had failed to convert POP->ARM in my starting province, so Massie took me out on turn 2. I still hung around to play more games, just to see if that was a fluke. Turns out it is, but it does happen every so often.

The morale of this story is, don't Duel with Duke. He is SOOO lucky. :P
"We do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing" - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Post Reply