Hans Water Crossing v VORTAN?

Talk about the two player Standard WoK variant

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Vortan
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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:38 am

Yeah, but korexes friend, old pal, buddy ... creep, creep ... think you could either a. Set it so Sal starts with one army or b. Start us FAR FAR AWAY from each other, especially if he is going to pick on my home province in turn 2 :shock:

I did wonder about the NAP's/Headhunting comments appearing though. It freaked me out cos I was sure I had checked. Your system is starting to make me paranoid. Still it means I can re-install all Dragonettes stuff cos she had a major flaw on her PC and I am mid-way through 20 billion (or it feels like it) updates at the moment.

Actually on that note - Can you email her your scholar chat invite again so it can be reauthorised through the content advisor. I dont think I could find my own way there. TA.
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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:40 am

Ah, home provinces are not important after the first turn. On the first turn you're stuck with them. But in most games i've moved everything out of my home province after turn 1 so why should it get protected? It's no different from the other provinces on turn 2.
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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:13 am

Well maybe not but hey, I like the higher defence level okay. If you had hit province 30 as planned you would have found 36 armies defending it.

:D

And that could have proved an interesting engagement don't you think.

Still, when finally the restart can say with almost total certainty that if you want a rapid turn around then I am definately your man because I have nothing better to do :roll: It's a tough old life being retired on medical grounds. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Glad I finally found something to do that doesn't involve solo play. Anyway, off again, updates not going well. Anti-virus is interfering. I new I should have installed that after, flippin' thing.
Now WHY did it do THAT!

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Yes I am on the transplant list for a new sense of humour!

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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:25 am

Well the idea of attacking 30 is not to rip you...but to lower your number of armies. You will definitely win the battle, but hopefully be a lot weaker and will have more trouble taking neutrals. :D

By the way, your blues are in sooo much trouble! :P
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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:28 am

Vortan if you're as bored as me...we could start a new full duel as well. I prefer light duels, but seeing that they will cause problems, we could try a full duel. :)

If you're up for it we could play in Duel 12 by GM Chris. :D
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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:33 am

Yeah, why not, what we do just apply?
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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:36 am

I applied to join that the other day but no one had the bottle.
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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:42 am

I applied to duel 12. Hope Korexus checks his mail soon. :D
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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:48 am

Its either that or get Han to set something up if you cant wait.

'HAN!' they cry expectantly...

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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:51 am

That's fine too. :D

Though no need to balance the positions or anything. Just give us the first starting positions that are generated. I like the randomness. :D
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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:05 am

Don't you think the site clock seems to run very slowly when nothings happening? :roll:

Check your PM box Sal ... felt like a change. :lol:
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Post by Hannibal » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:41 am

I just arrived and caught this thread. OK, I'm on it, looking into it, and will sort it ASAP giving you options you can agree on. Part of the problem is that I as GM (and inventor), can't yet tell it to be a Duel-LITE game rather than a DUEL game ... so the nap-restrictions of DUEL apply until Kor switches it over to the crules of Duel-LITE; which can negate some orders and blow your plans. I MUST get Kor to treat (and allow ME to treat) Full Duel and Duel-Lite as different games, different set-ups, so that you doon't run into "not valid order - napped", when that's wrong for Lite, only happemns because the engine thinks it's Full Duel, ie with naps ........

Kor, I repeat that we need set-up to allow me to specify whether it is Full Duel or Duel-Lite ? And not just wait for you to action the change after I ask you to? As this time.

OK, I'm on it. Gimme a few minutes plus Kor getting back to me.

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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:51 am

If it's easier Hannibal, than you could also just make it a full duel game.
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Post by korexus » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:24 pm

I've set it to Duel Lite, but I can't do anything about HH until I get home.

Han, I know you want the option in the setup and I fully intend to do it, but I have a *really* long list of things to do right now, both in and out of WoK... Right now, it is easier for me to switch Duels manually (5 clicks from the home page) than it is to change the GM setup page.]


I'll add you both to my duel game too. But I really must to some work today...



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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:28 pm

TheDragon says if your that bored hop on a plane and come over here cos you can finish painting the fence :P

By the time we get sorted out I might actually have finished with this very *yawn* exciting task ... left it installing 71 windows updates (i mean - good grief)
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Post by Hannibal » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:28 pm

Saladin wrote:If it's easier Hannibal, than you could also just make it a full duel game.
Many thanks. I appreciate the offer. Really. But Duel-Lite really SHOULD work, now that I finalised the rules for it; and I know the engine can do it; it's just that, er, the set-up defaults to Full Duel (till Kor intervenes to change it), which means that the nap-restrictions of Full Duel get applied to Duel-Lite when they shouldn't, which blows orders.

BOTH Full Duel and Duel-Lite have had separate clear rules and engine-policing for weeks now; but the the problems are two-fold: 1) a set-up of a Duel-Lite still needs Kor to switch it from Duel to Duel-Lite, apparently before you start; and 2) the engine still defaults to print Houserules of ages ago, before I updated them.

I'll get on to making the 2 sets of rules clear AND get Kor to make any new game default to THEM rather than earlier versions of Houserules (I did already ask that a while back ...).

But, Sal, I just took a look: even these, the OLD rules, and for DUEL rather than Duel-Lite, do still clearly say, TWICE, that NOBODY, Human or Robo, can HEADHUNT for TWO turns:

From even the current Houserules attached to your new Water-Crossing game:


"In addition, no player can attack an opponent's home provinces for the first TWO turns. (including missiles and spy opperations.) ....

........................................................

A reminder: on Turn 01 AND Turn 02, no attacking, missiling or spying the start-province of any of your human opponents, nor of any Robo-player. After Turn 2, ........................"


THAT bit is TWICE clear, in ALL versions of the rules of EVERY Duel!

I feel the need to defend that rule of mine here: Hey: Duel is very intense; it risks being all over in 4 turns. Not ideal. Giving 2 turns of grace gets the balance a bit better, the game a bit longer. Plus: In Standard, you could always, possibly, make some kind of a comeback after a loust first 2 turns; via diplomacy with others; but in Duel there are no others; defeat at end of turn 1 or 2 leaves you no way out; the BALANCE for a Duel means it it's best to have TWO turns of no head-hunting, to avoid any "game-all-over" after 1 or 2 turns, with no diplo way out ... Plus: it adds more skill? : You can't simply spy on the other's start-provs, not for two turns; you have to use judgement as to where they will end up, OTHER than their start-provs, to spy on THOSE where you judge they'll be, rather thasn on those (start-prov) where you KNOW they'll be. At least for the first 2 turns.

Yep, I know this is a confusing difference from Standard 10-player WOK, but it's better for all Duels. Easy to remember: ALL Duels have two turns of grace/no head-hunting, no doing ANYTHING against the start-provs. Believe me, it makes Duels better, or else it might all be over in too short a time, ALL Duel rule-sets have ALWAYS had this rule of no head-hunting till after T2, that has never varied; it was there in these Houserules, too ....stated twice for emphasis and clarity.

Right, do you wanna re-start? Or switch to Full Duel? Or restart with new set-up? My best suggestion is: you restart from Turn 0, current set-up, with new orders each from Turn 0. But wait till Kor makes the engine know it is a LITE game, not a Full Duel game.

Lemme know your thoughts?

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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:01 pm

sounds good. As lite though for poor Sal.
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Post by korexus » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:58 pm

I think the confusion came because Matt set his Duel to 1 turn for HH and did change the house rules...

As for the 1 turn/2 turn thing. If both players want it on 1 turn, let 'em. It may change the game balance, but we may as well let them try.

Oh and, while most of your arguments for 2 turns are valid. The spying one surely isn't. - You can see which provinces your opponent has taken after turn 1 and spy on *them* during turn 2. The headhunting rule doesn't stop that at all...

As per my previous post, the engine does know that it is Lite, but there is still a BUG in the code affecting headhunting somehow. There is no way for me to check that until I get home. (Shouldn't affect this game, so I guess you can re-run turn 2 now if you want but I thought I should mention it...)


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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:16 pm

Hi. Well i looked it up and it does say only 1 turn headhunting:

http://www.kaomaris.com/phpNuke/modules ... 9&TurnNR=0

Apart from that the two round headhunting rule does not make duels (or regular games) better. It also does not make them last longer. It's only a nuisance.

Why? Because it only protects one province. And on turn two there is nothing important about the 'home province' any more. Yes it's important on turn 1, but on turn 2 it's just another province most of the time empty as well. So what use is it to not allow to attack it.

If you want to make duels last longer and be more evenly than simply nap all players together for the first two rounds so they can't attack each others provinces (only bump in to each other in a neutral).

Now that would work. I wouldn't be in favour of that, but at least it would work. The second turn of non headhunting simply does not work.
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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:18 pm

For the light game i would prefer to not start over. Turn one went without any problems so it would be best to just rerun turn two.
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