Hans Water Crossing v VORTAN?

Talk about the two player Standard WoK variant

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Post by korexus » Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:02 pm

Sal, I personally do keep things in my home province. The extra DEF makes the wokers more defendable.

This means I do have a use for the no headhunting rule on turn two. - I can put my workers in my home and safely allow all my new armies to attack out, regardless of OOP.

Of course, this extra agression probably speeds up the game, rather than slow it down. But it does make the rule a useful feature.

If we're honest, it's very rare for anyone to attack a home on turn 2, it's impossible to missile them and it doesn't really matter that you can't spy them as you can hammer your opponent's EFF by hitting their other provinces. The rule removes a little bit of randomness from the game, but not so much that you can't still fluke a win, I'm sure! :P


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Post by Vortan » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:57 pm

And I am STILL going to win. Err ... dispite the fact that on believing the game about to have a full re-run we had a frank discussion on what SHOULD have happened. Mind you, assuming nothing has been amended then its poetic justice I guess. Bring it on.
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Post by korexus » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:37 pm

Saladin wrote:Hi. Well i looked it up and it does say only 1 turn headhunting:

http://www.kaomaris.com/phpNuke/modules ... 9&TurnNR=0
This, of course, is not the link to the house rules of the game in question.

Those rules can be found here http://www.kaomaris.com/phpNuke/modules ... 2&TurnNR=0 (note the different GameID) and in those rules it does clearly state 2 turns of no headhunting.

As I see it, this is pretty clear. Re-run if people got messed up because of the NAPs but if you headhunted then its your own silly fault. :P

The game is flagged as 'Lite', Han. so you can re-run whenever you're ready.



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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:50 pm

Korexus as i said before those house rules are the full duel house rules. So i looked up the house rules for a duel light and got the page i linked to.

Anyway, it's all academic for this game as we both had trouble on turn two with the 'nap' problem so a rerun of turn 2 is in order.
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Post by Saladin » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:38 pm

Well the full duel is coming to a close. It's great playing a whole full duel in half a day! :D

Looking forward to picking up with the duel light game tomorrow!
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Post by Saladin » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:49 am

I see that there's been a rerun of turn 2. However it didn't seem to have worked as all my orders still were not processed. :(
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Post by Hannibal » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:30 pm

What? You two played a whole Full Duel in one day?? Wow.

As to your Duel-Lite, Water-Crossing: I got the go-ahead from Kor that any bug voiding valid orders was probably now fixed, so I pressed "Re-run Turn" for Turn 2 a few minutes ago, as you guys wanted.

I had a quick look. Sal's Oranges AGAIN come up as doing nothing visible, but that is not a bug this time; perhaps it wasn't a bug last time; it is the rule of not attacking any player's start-prov on turns 1 or 2.

I'm trying to be nice to everybody. Look, if you both want, I'll start up this Duel-Lite over again from the beginning. New start-set-up, new map, whatever.

But don't blame me for the rules confusion: nor Kor; nobody's fault. "Full Duel" is finalised and works fine; Duel-Lite is just now finalised but full of patches and fixes. So, to set up your Duel-Lite, the system is still that I create a "Full Duel" and then ask Kor to switch it over to the Lite engine, which has different rules (eg it has 6 Robos not 4, and it doesn't stop VorA from fighting SalA etc.). But it gets set up as a Full Duel, so the engine imports "Full Duel" Houserules into the Houserules box. Kor did his part by switching it to the Lite engine, but the Houserules were left as Full Duel rules. These say 2 Turns of no headhunting, but are Full Duel rules. So Sal, you look for some Duel-Lite rules, understandably. UNFORTUNATELY, you look at the Houserules that Bryk/GM Matt set up for the Lite game that HE is GM'ing. Not mine. You'd have done better to look at the Lite Houserules that I myself set up as the latest, by looking at the Houserules for the Lite game in sign-up ... which are much clearer, and once again stress, twice, that there is no attacking start-provs for 2 turns.

In fact, every Duel that has ever run has had the 2-turn rule, usually mentioned and then stressed as a reminder in the Houserules. Except for Bryk's. Bryk took an old Houserules set of mine, and crossed oput the bit about 2 turns. His is the only case. As fate would have it, you defaulted to HIS rules, not any that I've written. Unlucky, but hardly my fault ... I wasn't even aware of Bryk's version of my rules. The rules are as I've written in the current, on-offer, Lite game-to-join. It's always been 2 turns ... except for the place you looked.

I've considered your point on 1 versus 2 turns, but I'm not persuaded. As designer and as GM, I choose to stick with 2 turns, as per normal Duel rules and as per my latest Houserules on latest Lite game for sign-up.

I don't want a hiuge debate on the design of Duel. It works. It's worked for 20 games. I'll listen, but on the issue of 1 or 2 turns I've listened and considered and decided. GM's can depart from my standard rules, of course; but as GM in this game I'm sticking to them. I've thought it through a lot.

I'll give you an example: If the headhunting is only ONE turn, then the Robos might be taking out a human's start-prov early in Turn 2 ... so an unlucky human might have to concentrate 100% on vacating his start-prov during T1, rather than anything to do with his opponent! Unlucky and unfair. I prefer to give him 2 turns to start and vacate if necessary. So I'd better make sure that Robos won't hit a human start-prov on Turn 2. Hmm. I could make it one rule for Robos and a different rule for Humans ... ? but why bother to make it complicated? Best if I make it that NOBODY can attack a start-prov for 2 turns. Which happens to have other pluses: 1) simplicity (try writing rules where Robos cannot attack a human start-prov on T2 but humans can ... needless complexity) 2) it reduces the risk of the whole game being effectively over by Turn 2, when one Human wipes out two of the other human's on Turn 2 3) it adds to twists and turns - a player can at least have Turn 2 to come back atya 4) it avoids the bleedin' obvious of spying on the other human's start-provs on T2 to reduce their EFF - you at least have to figure out where they are, maybe risk moving spies up to make it adjacent, etc., so that there is a degree more skill and a degree less formulaic. Plus 5 other reasons I won't bore you with.

I've thought about it as a designer, and decided that for DUELS it's better to make it 2 turns. My design.

Enough. I know what I'm doing. 2 turns is part of it, always has been (pace Bryk), and it still is in this game.

If you like, I'd be happy to declare that you were going off on an understandably wrong version of the rules, so we start over from the start, no problem. Anything to keep people enjoying Duels!

Cheers,
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Post by Vortan » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:58 pm

Sorry about the delay Sal, life interfering again. Naughty life. Still I return to find you ASSUMING victory. You ain't beaten me yet (not quite)
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Post by Saladin » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:06 pm

Neah, no need to start all over again. We'll just continue the game from here. I may have lost a turn but that's not going to help you much Vortan! :P
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Post by Vortan » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:12 pm

:shock: but its still showing my orders as orders received (in watercrossing) so I suspect its more terminal than suspected. I move for a restart as I am now very suspicious of the engines neutrality - well you have to admit it does seem to have it in for me.
Now WHY did it do THAT!

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Post by Vortan » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:15 pm

Of course you could PRESS YOUR BUTTON
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Post by korexus » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:28 pm

In my humble opinion (and I am ever so 'umble, as you know!) The biggest advantage of the 2-turn HH rule is that players who go early in the OOP don't have to stick at home defending their stuff on turn 2. This means you can plan to attack with all your armies on turn 2, making the whole game more dynamic and agressive.

The rules thing is unfortunate. To fix this for the future, the Duel rules link now shows full and lite rules as well as a list of things for GMs to consider. Thanks Han!

I would welcome variety in how games are set up. In a community like this we're always going to get camps of people who prefer one way to another. The best way to decide who is right is to try both methods and see what people prefer. If we're going to do this though, we need GMs to state clearly in the houserules what changes have been made.

To this end, F#from now on, new Duels will not show the rules in the houserules. Duplicating the information is only likely to confuse people...



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Post by Saladin » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:34 pm

Korexus how far as you guys with the plans for a 3 player duel?
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Post by korexus » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:38 pm

Pretty close actually. I just need to drag myself into the coding to sort out how NAPs will work and we'd be ready to test. The values may be shockingly out though, so I'll get me, Han and trewqh playtesting it first...


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Post by Hannibal » Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:11 pm

Vortan wrote::shock: but its still showing my orders as orders received (in watercrossing) so I suspect its more terminal than suspected. I move for a restart as I am now very suspicious of the engines neutrality - well you have to admit it does seem to have it in for me.
Hi Vortan,

I think I'm right in saying that the engine is still spotting that you had filled in orders for T3. But of course, those were your orders for T3 after the old T2, before it was re-run. No problem. You can simply revise/over-write your old orders. Maybe click OFF on "Ready to run turn" until you've revised those orders, otherwise it would run with them if your opponent puts in orders and clicks Ready. So click off Ready, then over-write your orders. Mind you, you've probably done that and run two more turns while I'm writing this ... you guys!

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Post by korexus » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:37 pm

Correct, re-running a turn doesn't overwrite the next turn's orders. - In case it hasn't affected you and you don't want to change them...


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Post by Saladin » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:12 pm

Another great (light) duel has ended with the mighty Vortan as winner! :D

Congratulations Vortan!

Now let's get this game published so i can see how much stronger i really am...stupid 3 robots rule. :P
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Post by Vortan » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:19 pm

Well you can if you want - I was on the verge of defeat although by some stroke of tactical genius :lol: on my part (or was it on your's) I seemed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

If you had taken 52 instead of 54 we would have still been playing but ...

YAY VORTAN! Not a total loser

I like duel-lite. :P
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Post by Saladin » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:25 pm

Yeah i prefer duel light over full duel as well.

In duel light even if you're in a weaker position you still have a chance if you can rip three robo players. Which isn't all that easy but at least doable. :)

I don't really like the forced naps in the full duel. I feels just like an artificial change to add a bit more strategy to the game (which it already has plenty). Plus it leads to mistakes being made as people forget or misinterpret the rules which substracts from the fun.

Anyway congratulations again Vortan. I have to say it was a stroke of tactical genius from you that won you the game...next game i'm going to keep a close eye on those robo's. :wink:
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Post by Vortan » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:32 pm

Lets not leave it too long I might forget what I am supposed to do :wink:
Now WHY did it do THAT!

If at first you don't succeed - give up and have a coffee!

Yes I am on the transplant list for a new sense of humour!

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