Order Of Play OOP in Duel

Talk about the two player Standard WoK variant

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Order Of Play OOP in Duel

Post by Hannibal » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:57 am

Another refinement I would like.

We all know how the luck of the Order Of Play matters a lot. It's part of what makes it exciting to play WOK, you are crossing your fingers, and then either punching the air or groaning (OK, maybe just relieved or slightly disappointed in the case of some people :-) ).

Nothing you can do about it, somebody has to have their attacks apply before somebody else's, no alternative. I agree. And don't worry, I'm not trying to make it simultaneous or anything. Only a small refinement for Duel.

Y'see, in Duel it matters a lot, especially in the first 1-3 turns. After that, there's a fair chance that going earlier is actually better for you (eg kill off those armies I spied in #XX before they can attack out to somewhere ....). But rarely in the first turn or three, where you can be seriously disadvantaged by having to go before the other guy.

You have to attack out first, and he might take what you attacked out from. And he might take what you attacked THROUGH before you stopped. And he runs no such risk; going later/last, he can be cavalier about attacking out and attacking on, because no enemy has a later turn to attack anything you left or took...

Plus it happens to seriously affect your EFFectiveness, to the advantage, again, of the player going later: you go early and spy him successfully, your EFF hits 99% and stops going up, successes wasted in terms of EFF. Then it's his turn in the OOP: He spies you EQUALLY successfully: he goes up to his 99%, with room for all the successes to help, and you go down; he ends up, on average, higher than you on EFF...

I'm not saying there aren't sometimes advantages to going earlier in the OOP. And you can sometimes be worse off and YET exploit it to your advantage. But on average, it's a strong factor ...

So I've rejected a couple of Duel start-up maps because one player had ALL his 3 colours, on Turn 1, going before ALL of his opponent's colours.

My suggested refinement: In Duel, the engine rejects any turn-run where all of slots 1,2,3 go before all of slots 4,5,6, or vice versa, and runs another run instead. So at least you automatically avoid the WORST case of 3 before 3. It would help me get fairer start-maps. It would help the game be a tad less dependent on a freak of luck.

I'd apply it to ALL turns of Duel, for simplicity. The players don't even need to be aware of it - the engine just never gives them an extreme in the OOP. It's like the engine never generates start-provs adjacent to each other - the rules dn't need to say it, it's just built in.

The issue is whether Kor needs to code it ONLY for Duel, or across the board. It would make a hidden slight difference to Standard in favour of the later slots (OOP gets re-run if 123 before 456 or vice versa, so some OOPs get rejected where 7,8,9,10 were on average later in the OOP, favouring them slightly).

And it might need a different coding for Duel-lite - reject if slots 1,2 before slots 3,4 or vice versa....

But for the "main" Duel, I reckon it's important, to avoid a freak of bad luck. It'll never happen? Well, it just did in Turn 2 of Duel #08. I got out of it OK, but it seems harsh for the future... and easy to fix?
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Post by korexus » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:27 pm

Done.

For anyone who cares about the maths there is a 1 in 20 chance of this happening, so it's worth looking at. The Game Engine will now generate a new OOP if the last of either player's spots goes before the first of the other player's spots.

Note that if one player has only two spots left, the dead spot would count as position 0, so he could have his remaining 2 slots after (but not before) all three of his opponent's. If both players have lost a spot the check won't affect the OOP at all.

This will only happen in Duel games, so no need to wonder about your standard WoK strategies, in a 2 spot duel, the check would still take place but that's not worth worrying about right now...

Also, some situations will still occur which are just as bad. (If you look at my current duel with Han, my spots A and C go, then his B, then my B, then his A and C. With the forced NAPs, our Bs can't affect each other, so I may as well be going first with all 3 spots. - And I don't expect Han to fluff his orders like I did last turn, so I'm probably going to get hurt here...



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Post by Hannibal » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:08 pm

korexus wrote: Also, some situations will still occur which are just as bad. (If you look at my current duel with Han, my spots A and C go, then his B, then my B, then his A and C. With the forced NAPs, our Bs can't affect each other, so I may as well be going first with all 3 spots. - And I don't expect Han to fluff his orders like I did last turn, so I'm probably going to get hurt here...
Chris.
Yep, I sure intend so - max hurt. :twisted:

But I dunno about me not fluffing my orders ...! What does, er, ...... "void - malformed orders" mean? Which I got a couple of times last turn! (No need to answer, I realise I screwed up the numbers of digits etc....). But you're always in with a chance of me fluffing my orders .... not my PLANS, you understand, just my bleedin' orders! Still, happens to us all.

And yes, bad luck in the OOP will still occur, but I'm sure we've done the right thing in ruling out the worst extreme fairly simply,

And yep, I thought the new OOP was very nice! It almost compensated for the my-3-before-your-3 OOP I got on last Turn 2 !!

And (since you always look for holes in what I post :twisted: ), I'm not certain about your assertion that our B's, napped, can't affect each other ... I was half-expecting that you might have screwed up your Orange plans (again!), and left your horde in Orange #35 ... in which case they could go crashiing through RoboGrey #52, neutral #51, and on to #50, so that if MY Greens had just gone 49-50-47-43, you'd have nicked #50 back off me and nicked its POP, and left yourself a route, through #48, to help out your doomed Browns .... but I take it that's unlikely ..... !

Should be fun .... well, for at least one of us .... are your orders in?

Just teasing, right?

:wink:

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Post by korexus » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:56 pm

Han wrote:I was half-expecting that you might have screwed up your Orange plans (again!), and left your horde in Orange #35 ... in which case they could go crashiing through RoboGrey #52, neutral #51, and on to #50, so that if MY Greens had just gone 49-50-47-43, you'd have nicked #50 back off me and nicked its POP, and left yourself a route, through #48, to help out your doomed Browns

Oooh! There's a plan! *goes to change orders*

Hang on, maybe that's what you want me to do.

But then again, I posted about your bluffing in the last game, so maybe you want me to decide not to do that.

Argh! What shall I do? *flips coin*, *coin comes down on its side*.

Right then I'll just have to not change my orders, that way Han can't know what I'm going to do.
(Or am I bluffing? :wink: )

So, anyway. I'm ready. Are you?


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Post by trewqh » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:10 pm

Going back to the subject of the thread; good job, you two! :)

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Post by Donut » Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:57 pm

Can I get a recap? Han usually makes sense... he just does it in so many words... :cry:
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Post by korexus » Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:59 pm

The game will never have a turn where all three of your players go before all three of your opponents. And vice-versa.
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Post by Hannibal » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:34 pm

Donut wrote:Can I get a recap? Han usually makes sense... he just does it in so many words... :cry:
Yeah well, there just might be a link between those two things. It's all there, you just need to read it! (OK, I do go OTT sometimes , granted).

Let me put it this way for you:

The game will never have a turn where all three of your players go before all three of your opponents. And vice-versa.

OK? And beware of Kor stealing this simple explanation by using his coding mastery of WOK to go back and post the same words higher up the thread! Just watch! I bet he does! :wink:
There are two ways to write: Short-hand, and Long-Han'ed. ~ Han

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs"......... it's probably just that you're the last person to appreciate the enormity of the catastrophe about to

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