New Duel, Arresting Cows

Talk about the two player Standard WoK variant

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New Duel, Arresting Cows

Post by korexus » Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:13 pm

Since the last game filled so quickly, I thought I'd open yet another Duel game, this time on the Water Crossing map.

Two ways we can go on this, Kikkertje should be allowed in a game as soon as possible, if he wants it. Alternatively, he may prefer to watch Donut play a duel first to get the hang of it. In which case, maybe we should try out Han's suggestion of altering the number of slots a player takes.

Anyway, post if you're interested...


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Post by Kikkertje » Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:54 am

Watching games gives me less experience compared to actively playing. Give me and Donut something to play as a team. He can teach me along the road. =)

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Post by korexus » Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:00 pm

Fair point. I've added you to the Forest Lake game and emailed all the players to check that they're still alive and able to play...


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Post by korexus » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:43 pm

After Turn 1 Note, trewqh has taken over the running of this game, I am posting as a player.

NB. Post could change as I realise the full extent of Han's deviousness. (Deviance? Deviosity?)


Well, with no better option at the start of the game, I might as well go in OOP order as I saw it.

korexus C (Red).
Take the first province without loss. Yay!
Second and third provinces are more normal, maybe even a bit unlucky but that's three provinces. Looking good so far, but then disaster!

Code: Select all

Your province 29 is under attack!! The attack comes from province 28
The attack is commanded by Hannibal A
You have 5 troops at a level of 1.924.
The defenses of the province are at 0.3
Your PDEF is 20.031
The enemy has 5 at a level of 1.876.
The enemy has a PATT of 18.385
Oh well, 5 troops each and the numbers are on my side. Could be close though.

Code: Select all

PATT  PDEF  AT  DF  RES [ FIGHT FOR PROVINCE 29 ] 
--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
18.385  20.031  16  2  - ATTACKER WINS 
18.385  20.031  6  19  + DEFENDER WINS 
18.385  20.031  8  5  - ATTACKER WINS 
18.385  20.031  2  4  + DEFENDER WINS 
18.385  20.031  13  3  - ATTACKER WINS 
18.385  20.031  10  2  - ATTACKER WINS 
18.385  20.031  10  6  - ATTACKER WINS 
You have lost the battle! 3 armies take your province 29!
Not even close! That cheeky Han has leapt right across the map, Nabbed my 3rd province *and* got a spot next to my home.

Everything else as you'd expect until

Code: Select all

>> ORDER 30-26-1-1 <<
Province 26 is a Home Province. Head hunting is not allowed in this game on turn 1 or 2!
etc.

What's this, you can't spy on a home province on turn 1 anymore? Who made that rule. Oh wait. Me. :oops: (This was the recurring theme for the turn...)


korexus B (Orange).

This spot took a lot more thought when doing orders. It's NAPed with Han B (light green) so I really wanted to take 60 for an 'accidental' conflict and mess up Han's orders without him being able to fix it due to the NAPs. In the end, the threat of him doing something similar to me but better made me play safe. Maybe I shouldn't have bothered as this now makes 2 players with only 3 provinces after turn 1.


korexus C (Brown).

Originally, I was going to run along the bottom of this island and claim some territory. But then I saw that almost every province was within striking distance of lightblue or light green so I couldn't be sure to get the resources anyway. 'What the hell?' I thought. If I'm going to be ganged up on, I might as well take the fight to the enemy, it could catch someone off guard.

There was partial success here, I took 56 from light blue (revenge for province 29 earlier) but far from catching Han off guard, he must have expected this mood as he then spied 56 to see what I'd put there.

Cunning indeed is Hannibal in the ways of WoK Duel.



More later after I've digested the reports. (Unless I'm doing something else...)


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Post by Hannibal » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:21 am

After Turn 1 - in reply

"DRAT", I thought, (though the term was a tad stronger at the time), he goes later than me more often than I go later than him, can be key on Turn 1...

Han B (Lt Green)

This took a lot of thought for me, too, just like for KorB (Orange), because we (my Lt Green and his Orange) are due to be napped till turn 9. We can both go for same provs now, but then curtain off the centre of the map, unable to attack each other, but effectively shielding...

Well, Kor often goes bold. Expect the unexpected. So I thought his Orange just might go 35-60 and onwards. In which case, going later, I'd be nicking at least #60 and maybe #49 from him, by going later than him, and retaking them for free after he had killed all the neutral defenders and moved on to #48 or #45. But he'd see that risk? In which case he'll leave them for me, and I get them, and I curtain off the middle on MY terms - Orange can't come through to help out Brown. Plus, it might rather hem in Orange, what with RoboViolet coming #54-#52 THIS turn, and on to #35 NEXT turn (oops, shouldn't have reminded Kor of that!). Win-win (probably)? So I got my provs and my curtain. Of course, it meant more pressure on my Yellows, out there on their own versus two, just as I was hoping to trap his Browns with two-on-one ...

HanC (Lt Blue)

Hmm. Expect the unexpected. Kor's Browns go last, .... and will come for #56, I'm almost certain. (He did). Now, my Lt Greens have their own priorities vs Oranges (see above), so it's up to my Lt Blues. Hmm, if I'm THAT certain, I'll take just #10, then #56 and hold it for him to bounce off. But if he DOESN'T come that way, I've wasted #07 by only going 11-10-56 and stopping. I'll risk trying for BOTH - I take #07 and #10 and #56, and hope that, if he hits #56 with his Browns, he'll bounce off. Cos it must be about even, and this way I get more stuff from 3 provs if he DOESN'T come this way. Worth the risk...

I take my 3 provs, to #56. Sure enough, Kor Browns come piling in. And I've lost more taking 3 than he has taking 2, but I have the Defence, so I have the better PATT/PDEF ... looks about even ... Kor's Browns win, drat. But I thought that might happen, so did stuff, including spying on it. Hmm. He has 40 armies there in #56 now ...but no pop etc. to speak of... OK, he came out well ahead.

HanA (Yellow)
My revenge. Mirror-image of what his Browns just did to me in #56. Similarly, I risked taking 2 provs before attacking a prov that might be where his armies ended up. It was. They were. But, to even things up on two fairly-equal battles, fate decreed that I won this one. We did the same as each other in mirror-image, take two, attack a third, find it occupied by the enemy as THEIR third. Got one each.

Hmm. So with our BB nap cutting the middle of the map for now, it might be my Lt Greens and Lt Blues against his Browns, racing against his Reds and Oranges against my Yellows?

Uh oh. Double drat. Look at the OOP for T2. ALL my three go before all of his three. That sucks. I know that going earlier can sometimes be a plus ... but not on turns 1 or 2 ... I'm pinned; anywhere I go risks him taking where I left from, across all 6 players .... that's bad luck, but I'm sure it'll even out and I'll come from behind ... again! Maybe.
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Post by korexus » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:39 pm

After turn 2

Curses! That's what I get for not paying attention to the OOP!

I was so smug in all my players going after Han, that I completely failed to notice that korexus B did not go before Robogrey. Thus what should have been a quick sneak round while the robot was out manouvre turned into a massacre. Definite bad move on my part there, Orange has only taken 2 provinces in 2 turns now!

korexus A then tried a risky strategy. I tried sending all the 40 armies which Han had spied at his province #10. This would either give me inroads into his light blues or cause a big fight, hopefully messing up his attack orders. The fight happened, 40 of my troops hit 32 of his. I have a bit of LEV, he has 0.6 DEF, 4 of his troops are left when I'm driven back. Not great, but at least I hurt one of his spots quite a bit (kor A is on the wrong end of a 2 on 1, so attrition is the main idea here...) - And light blue certainly didn't take any provinces this turn...

Finally, kor C. A turn which went more as I planned.

Firstly, I smash into Han's remaining LEVed armies in 28.

Code: Select all

>> ORDER 30-28-100 <<
You only have 36 armies to attack with!
You attack province 28 with 36 armies with a level of 1.000
This province belongs to Hannibal A
PATT is 9.500
The enemy has 3 troops at a level of 1.918.
The defenses of the province are at 0.6.
The enemy's PDEF is 20.285.
3 of them at about double the LEV, it'll take a chunk out, but I'll get them without too much hassle...

Code: Select all

PATT  PDEF  AT  DF  RES [ FIGHT FOR PROVINCE 28 ] 
--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
9.500  20.285  1  17  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  2  15  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  1  17  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  6  4  + ATTACKER WINS 
9.500  20.285  5  13  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  0  1  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  2  15  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  6  8  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  6  12  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  2  13  - DEFENDER WINS 
OK Han, this is getting a bit silly. Take that soldier off the steroids will you?

Code: Select all

9.500  20.285  0  15  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  1  20  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  0  3  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  6  16  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  4  7  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  2  7  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  20.285  3  13  - DEFENDER WINS 
---------The defenses lost 0.1 points!---------
Aha! My chance! That drop in PDEF will swing thigs for me...

Code: Select all

9.500  19.533  8  6  + ATTACKER WINS 
9.500  19.533  5  19  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  19.533  0  4  - DEFENDER WINS 
9.500  19.533  9  6  + ATTACKER WINS 
You have won the battle! 18 armies take province 28!
Slightly unreasonable there, to knock out 18 of my armies with your 3. The upside of this was that a long fight produces a lot of LEVel and so I could go on to take 2 further neutrals.

Finally I learn from last time's spying mishap and get a good salvo of spies off at a province I know Han will own and that I will be allowed to spy on, for a good EFF boost to me and hit to him. I also find out.

Code: Select all

#ID  NAME POP WOK AIM ARM  LEVEL  DEF  MI  SP  
========================================================== 
27  Bee 0 0 EFF 11 1.037 0.4 0 0 
========================================================== 
quite a few times. Well, 11 armies I can cope with, I just hope he didn't make more anywhere else...


Chris

PS. Han, the comentary says you took 48, but the map says no. I'm guessing this is a result of my attempt to liven up the commentary and the map is right. Can you confirm one way or the other?
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Post by Hannibal » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:02 pm

korexus wrote:After turn 2

PS. Han, the comentary says you took 48, but the map says no. I'm guessing this is a result of my attempt to liven up the commentary and the map is right. Can you confirm one way or the other?
Certainly I can. The commentary is right that I captured it, not the map. My 36 brave armies in #49 took #48 (without loss, even!), and then recruited 36 armies there. So perhaps GM Mike can update the player data : my Lt Greens own #48 and have 72 armies there.

Thanks,
Han

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Post by Hannibal » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:29 am

2 hours later: OK, I was only kidding :wink:

Yep, my stupid poltroons in #49 tried for #48 but were defeated, and laughed at. The map is right. #48 is still neutral. And invincible as far as I can tell !
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:56 am

After Turn 2 - in reply

When I first looked at this upcoming Turn 2, I was downhearted ...not to say scared! Mainly because ALL 3 of my colours went earlier than all 3 of Kor's...

Sometimes it can be good to go first - especially later in the game when you want to nail some armies before they can attack out to somewhere else. But in the early turns, later is almost always better? You can do your attacks without fear that the prov you left, or the provs you take as you go, can be taken later by the other guy ...

But then I looked on the bright side. Kor's 40 armies spied in #56. Hmm. They're not allowed to attack start-prov #58 yet, so I could vacate that OK. And they can't attack back through their own #41. And Kor won't want to just stand still, with options north and west. OK, my Lt Greens will take #57 and stand THERE, for him to bounce off. And my Lt Blues will just stand still where they are in #10, for him to bounce off. Either battle would be close, but either of them would be in my favour. Especially if he went for #10, since (unknown to him), I really DID think he'd try for #56 on Turn 1, even chance or so, so I didn't recruit/transform from #56, transformed elsewhere, and put them in #10 in case. So, to Kor, it probably looked like a risky-but-probably-good route. I'd spied #56, so knew what he had, and knew the odds favvoured me if I just stood still in #10. Wasting a turn, no attacks, but he might bounce off.

His 40 Browns in #56 DID attack my 32 Lt Blues in #10, and it went with the odds - darn close, but I held him off, just, with 4 armies surviving. Just as well he didn't go north to #57: I had an appalling time taking #57 from the neutral, and was much weaker there than I'd expected ...

In the East, my Yellows are facing two, as his Browns are in the South-West. Again I was due to go first, before both Red and Orange. I agonised over whether to take #21 and make my defensive stand there (I wish I had!), but chickened out and took #22, thinking he just might reach it, but, after fighting those neutrals, bounce off. Didn't happen.

Instead, Kor's Reds did a bold-revenge on my Yellows' boldness last turn, and swept round me with #28-25-24. Wow. Still, I'd thought he might do something like that, so at least I spied #25 a couple of times - I see Kor has 23 armies there ... and 125 workers making missiles!! The dog!

Can my Yellows hold out against his Reds (and Oranges?) longer than his Browns can hold out against my Lt Blues and Lt Greens? Because it's not that easy to go help out ... my Lt Green and his Orange are napped, and can't attack through each other till Turn 9 ...

Great fun.
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Post by korexus » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:49 am

Hannibal wrote:2 hours later: OK, I was only kidding :wink:

Yep, my stupid poltroons in #49 tried for #48 but were defeated, and laughed at. The map is right. #48 is still neutral. And invincible as far as I can tell !
Ok, I found the problem, it shouldn't happen again...

I've also added interest to the failed attack comments. You can now see 9 different comments for a successful attack and 4 for a failed one. Other options for both are gratefully recieved.


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Post by korexus » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:55 pm

Not a huge amount of time, so here's a brief run down which may later be updated.

korexus C went first. sending scouts round Han A's home (hey, it had to be done, even though he was always going to take 27 back). Unfortunately, Han's missiling meant I couldn't then hold on to 26 (so those MIS workers were a mistake...) but I ground down a lot of Han's armies in the process, and leaving an army in each province denies Han the cheeky level bonus which I've been working on...

korexus A had a good turn, nabbing two neutrals (helped by the sneaky long range missile assitance from korexus A) and got some useful spy info on Han C.

korexus B had the worst turn. He should have used those missiles for himself. Who expects to lose fight that starts with

Code: Select all

You attack province 16 with 7 armies with a level of 1.870
This province is a neutral
PATT is 18.513
The enemy has 11 troops at a level of 1.000.
The defenses of the province are at 0.9.
The enemy's PDEF is 10.200.
I certainly didn't...

Looking at the OOP, I see that korexus C goes first *again* but that korexus A is in a good position to hassle Han B and C.

Strange, I can actually see both players losing the two on ones in this game, so the question becomes: who will lose it first?


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Post by Hannibal » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:59 pm

After Turn 3 - in reply

Hmm ... I don't think I exploited this turn and its OOP as much as I should have .... in fact we emerged about even out of it? Drat!!

First in the North-east, my Yellows against Kor's Reds,

We missiled each other (me on his spied armies in #25, him on my spied armies in #27, and killed something like 7 of him and 11 of me. Because my EFF was seriously bad, Kor having left my #27 as mine last turn just so that he could spy it for sure, it being definitely mine - 10 times by two of his colours. Smart. So my Yellows started with bad EFF. So I wondered how bold I could be with that low EFF... So I took his #25, retook #27, and just essayed into #24: this was in case I could nab his #24, if he had already gone out to #23; but he hadn't, so I bounced off, but worth a try. Just the same as him thinking attacking my #26 with just one army was worth a try; it bounced off. It was a merry-go-round of attacks, ending with my Yellows taking his missile silo in #25, but with me losing about 30 armies to his about 20. Due to that EFF he'd reduced me to last turn. Still, he now only has 6A in #24 and 1A in #22, and I own both the old missile-silos .....hehe!

In the middle, my Greens

Er, we fluffed our order-writing. The General in charge of my Greens has now, for his incompetence, been shot; in the foot.

My Greens have pretty much matched Kor's Oranges for incompetence. Kor's Oranges bounced off a Robo before it attacked out (I still find that hilarious!), and off a neutral. My Greens have now bounced off two neutrals and screwed up their orders. They are both pretty equally inept; thank goodness Kor's Oranges didn't get their act together while my Greens were failing miserably. About even in incompetence in the middle?

In the West, those pesky Kor Browns keep re-emerging. I killed off their main host last turn (just by standing still in #10 and them bouncing off me - just), and yet they now take TWO neutrals?! - #37 and #38 :cry: That was really sneaky (and annoyingly clever) of Kor to use his Orange missiles over in #35 to help his weak Brown's take neutrals #37 and #38. Those Browns aren't weak anymore! Not realising that his Browns might live again, my Blues played it safer and just took one province (after all, when he bounced off #10, I "won" but only with 4 armies remaining, so I was short on how many neutrals I could now take!).

All in all, our Oranges and Greens are both screwing up - if they weren't napped, and actually had to fight each other, I think it would be a comedy of errors! My Yellows are getting the better of his Reds. But Kor's Browns are similarly running rings round the opposition in the west.

Hmm. Maybe 52/48 in my favour, but that close.

@Kor: maybe write "After Turn 3" at the top? And maybe, for any readers, use "My Reds", rather than "korexus C went first" ?
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Post by korexus » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:29 pm

Mike, please add some <p align=center> tags to your commentary, I can't read it like that. If you want to add spacing, you can use &nbsp; to insert a space. If you really want to left justify then put a centered table in and then align the cells left, or use some <div>s or something!

korexus.

PS, I still don't think I'll like it after that, but we'll see...

PPS, not really as mad as this post makes me sound, but can't stay long.
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Post by Hannibal » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:48 pm

After Turn 4

My Yellows in the north-east are happy. Owning both my and (ex) his missile-silos after the merry-go-round of last turn certainly helped. I bombed out his 6A in #24 and his 1A in #22, so it didn't matter that the OOP would also have helped me. I tidied up those Red marauders and took neutral #23, so that I've recovered, and my Yellows must be about equal to his Oranges.

My Greens finally got their act together. On turn 2 they failed miserably against a neutral. On turn 3, bomber-command bombed the wrong prov, so my armies bounced off the neutral that was "supposed" to be empty of neutral armies; while my main host lost a crazy number of armies taking neutral #57, such that if Kor's Browns had gone at #57 instead of #10, he'd have broken through.

But, at last, turn 4, Missile-control and Infantry finally talked to each other: Missile-control bombed the RIGHT prov this time, and the infantry, a little uncertainly, finally took neutral #44 ... and went on to grab Kor Brown's #42 and defeat the 12 armies to take his missile-silo start-prov #36. So there was nothing I could do to stop those Kor Browns taking MY Blue missile-silo in #11, but I evened up the score by my Greens taking HIS Brown missile-silo in #36. Greens came good at last.

My Blues - I had a big choice here. (Don't you always in Duel?). If we were playing to proper Duel rules, I would have gone 09-14-16-32, breaking into his Oranges (I spied that Orange #35 had about zero, so #32 had to be a place he depended on for workers doing something); this would have put my Yellows and Blues in a great position to win by Ripping his Reds and Oranges, whatever his Browns did ... on the basis that I could kill Orange BEFORE Browns caught up with my Blues, thus winning however strong his Browns were, howebver close to taking out my Blues, so long as I took out his Reds and Oranges first, for a win...

But Kor prefers a to-the-death. So running from his Browns, for my Blues (+Yellows) to kill his Oranges before his Browns kill my Blues (a win under Duel Rules) was not gonna work, as his Browns would still be rampaging at will through me. So I had to do something else. I decided the key was not to let his Browns take out my Blues. I thought he'd take out #39, #11 and #10, and probably leave his host in #10 to attack on (he didn't). But this would have meant that he could finish off my Blues in #09 plus two other provinces? So it wouldn't be enough for my Blues to take just TWO other provs, because he could overrun all 3 Blue provs .... I decided I needed to take 3 provs, so that I'd end the turn with 4 provs, so that he could only take 3 of them, thus not ripping my Blues, so my Greens could then help out. So I split my Blue forces, bombed a bit, and went for #06, 14 and 16, a risk worth taking. And got them.

So my Blues can now stand against his Browns .... or pile into his Oranges, I have both options...

But his Oranges finally got moving and must have recruited 36 new nasties in #31 .... and his Browns took my missile-silo in #11.

Still, it's looking better than it was a turn ago.

I must admit Kor has been very unlucky in the OOP recently. On Turn 2 I had the bad luck that all my 3 went before all his 3; but then on Turns 3 and 4 the OOP was in my favour, as if to balance things up. And looking forward to the OOP for next Turn 5, it's perfect for me, bad for Kor ..... hehe! We shall see.

Han
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Post by korexus » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:38 pm

Well, after that last turn, it might not matter anyway. - I always said that the abject surrender of the other player is just as good, and I could well be going that way... :(


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Post by Hannibal » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:54 pm

No, no. Surely that's not as satisfying for either of us? To the last man, as you said you prefer, something definite and final, nothing unsatisfying, OK? :wink:
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Post by Hannibal » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:31 pm

Me, I'm in favour of the Duel VC being "Reduce the opponent from 3 colours to 1 colour", to avoid fighting to the bitter end after turns and turns where neither player particularly wants to bother putting in orders. But you said you are bloodthirsty and want the rules to be "to toatal annihilation", right? OK, it might take me a few turns, but I've organised my play towards that VC.... hopefully. :wink: 4 more turns should do it, maybe 5.

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Post by korexus » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:55 pm

I hate to repeat myself, but I have said in every thread where I've posted on this subject as well as in every email we've had about it that if a player has no chance of winning then he can surrender. So there won't be any turns of no one wanting to put in orders. I really don't think you're reading what I'm posting...

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Post by Hannibal » Sat Jan 27, 2007 12:29 pm

I'm sorry I didn't mention that part, Kor - I didn't want to make my post longer!

I may be wrong, but IMHO the problem with volutary surrender is that, well, it's voluntary. It may work out fine in 90% of cases, the guy resigns, but what if he doesn't realise or accept? What if he was disgruntled, or just feeling mean? It happens. Think of deliberate nap-breaks for revenge. Or people saying they'd be happy to go M-3 to make it 5 quits so that the two winning allies would have to fight it out? (I know of at least one player who wanted to).

In a site I was on in my absence, there was a huge forum-debate about players not resigning, just forcing a game to continue, sometimes bloody-mindedly.

You say they CAN surrender, not that they will?

And it matters more in Duel than in most games, just because each turn can take 1-3 hours to pore over your 3 TR's, make interlocking plans, and submit 3 sets of orders. A losing player could just submit blank orders in 1 minute every turn? It could take the "winner" 3, even 4 more turns to wipe out the last enemy prov, if it was miles away behind some Robos, especially if the winner didn't KNOW he could just march anywhere. He'd be trying to play the game, but wasting his time.

So it matters that you have a rule independent of voluntary surrender. Either Total Annihilation (I've argued against), or something like "Reduce enemy to one colour". IMHO.
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Post by Saladin » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:31 pm

I can think of a lot of situations where a player with only one colour will be stronger than a player with two or more colours. That is a viable strategy. I think that in the vast majority of games players who have no change of winning will surrender. And in the very few cases that a player decides to not surrender even though he can't win well to be honest that's every players prerogative.

Now if you really do want to make the game end when it's no longer possible for one player to win why not make it so that if a players total score falls below a certain points total he loses. At least that takes in to account the total strength of the player.
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