Duel #05 Suburbia - Game In Progress

[Hannibal]

AFTER TURN 4

Hey, where did those REDS come from?? Suddenly they appear in the middle of East Island to throw things into confusion ....

Ah well, at least it meant that my Yellows had more of an even battle, facing Hryll's Orages rather than both his Oranges and Reds. Which helped! My Yellows made a bit of a come-back! Nice. The OOP helped me a lot, lucky.

I was also lucky in the OOP in the East ....that my Lt Greens went before my Lt Blues, so could get out of the way in time, just.


Han

[Hannibal]

And I just noticed an interesting twist from the map, which might just interest any watchers, if any:

Red has left the orange/red battle against Yellow in East island, and come north-east to join in the shenanigans between his Brown and my Lt Green and Lt Blue - either to help finish off my weak Lt Greens, or to protect/shield his Browns from my Lt Blues, or maybe both...

The interesting point IS: Hryll's newly-arriving Reds, and Han's powerful Lt Blues, are NAPPED for another 5 turns! No attacking, missiling or spying on, any prov that is the other's at the start of the turn ... till start of T10.

Hmm, so if Hryll's Reds were coming to finish off my Lt Greens, tough; those Red armies in #38 are not allowed to attack any prov that is Lt Blue at the start of the turn, eg newly-Lt-blue #37. Phew.

But by the same token, my Lt Blues cannot attack anytjig of Hryll Red .... so my Lt Blues can't even try for #38, and can't be used to plough south into Red's hinterland - any order to attack a prov that was Red at the start of the turn is voided by the autogm, it's not a question of choosing or not to stick to the nap!

And if my Lt Blues were coming the other way, via #18 and #19, to get to wipe Browns, well Hryl's Reds just put a shield across that will last a full 5 more turns.

But Hryll has an interesting conundrum around my Lt Blue #37 : (I've spied his 24 strong Red armies in #38, and his undefended missile silo in #33, and my scout-attack last turn ran into 25 weakish Browm armies in #35 ....

Hmm. I bet Hryll wishes he knew what was in my Lt Blue #37. Enough armies to wipe Brown? Nothing? Somewhere in between? So bomb that #37 with the 10M in #38 (oops, not allowed, nap); or with the 31 missiles I spied in #33?

Even after bombing, if any, those strong 24A Reds in #38 can't attack it or attack through it to finish off those Lt Greens, because of the nap!! So what else could those strong 24A Reds do? And if the Reds can't go for #37 and on to maybe wipe the llast Lt Greens, maybe those 25A (+) Brown armies in #35 should go for it!?

And there are those neutrals and old Robo-provs where either my needy Lt Greens or your needy Browns could go try to capture some useful population instead.

Very complex. From MY POV, my strong Lt Blues cannot fight his powerful Reds (napped till end of T10), so I prob need my Lt Blues to kill off his Browns before his Reds can shield them, the way my Lt Blues have shielded my weak Lt Greens from him. And then trust my Yellows to come out on top of his Oranges in the West ... or else go help.

Lots of options and possible outcomes, as always in this game of Duel.

[trewqh]

It was the fact that Red and Lt Blue are napped that made me quite sure from the very point when I read one of your previous posts that you were bluffing when you said:

My Lt Blues now don't know whether to try to save my Yellows or my Lt Greens! (or am I bluffing Hryll by saying that ...?).

LtGreen was too close to dying then, and now, looking at the OoP, Red has no chance of shielding Brown this turn. I don't think you'll miss out on this opportunity to get him, unless you moved most of your LtBlue's armies to #41 or you are worried that after being bombed the force from #37 will be too weak.

So now Hryll has to see through you, because if he thinks that you will attack Brown, he could do the same forcing a fight between Red and LtBlue. Or maybe that's too risky... Anyway that possibility might discourage you from attacking, Han.

Anyway, shielding LtGreen was very clever.

[korexus]

Of course, Red and Lt Blue can still *cough_accidentally_cough* fight if one of them takes a new province which the other also goes for. That might make you tread carfeully, Han...

Note, I haven't looked at any player turn reports yet, so I'm not giving anything away by saying this, just giving my opinion as a player...


korexus.

[Hannibal]

It was the fact that Red and Lt Blue are napped that made me quite sure from the very point when I read one of your previous posts that you were bluffing when you said:

My Lt Blues now don't know whether to try to save my Yellows or my Lt Greens! (or am I bluffing Hryll by saying that ...?).

Hi trewqh! A million thanks. I love it when someone joins in to talk about a game in progress. I regard it as the perfect mix between playing the thing and savouring the game while we go along. So, if anything I say from here on makes you wish you hadn't posted ! , then ignore it and post again, OK?!

Yep, you are 100% right on that. I was bluffing. (But my quote did SAY I might be bluffing, right, just in case Hryll would be unhappy if I tried to mislead him in our smack/report/taunt thread!).

Yep, when Hryll unleashed Red and Orange hell on my Yellows in the West on Turn 3, my Lt Blue armies, and missiles, were so far over to the East that basically we had no choice: if they kill both my Yellow and my Lt Green they have won; gotta save one of them; I'm only near enough to save Lt Greens!; god speed Yellows, you're on your own! Yellows might in theory have been easier to save, and Lt Greens a long shot, but THAT was where my Lt Blue armies and missiles were (East), so I'd go help Light Greens rather than waste a turn reorganising, to head west, to help Yellows ... At the time, I honestly thought Hryll was about to stroll into Lt Green's undefended last prov and wipe him; and his Red and Orange overpower my Yellow, for a quick win for Hryll, with my powerful Lt Blues powerless to affect things - My Lt Blues could do huge damage and/or grow, but not help save either my Yellows or my Lt Greens for a turn or two ....which ....er......means losing, having lost 2 colours.

My Lt Blues were too far away to go back and help Yellows; and the very last Lt Green prov , after a disastrous start, was completely, and I mean completely, at his mercy in #41, not one turn but two-turns-in-a-row: Hryll wiped ALL my Lt Green armies in #37 on T2, and on T3 he was allowed to attack this START-prov #41 to finish off Lt Greens, just walk in, it's undefended, Lt Green's last prov...

But, Turn 3, I was slightly AMAZED to discover that nobody had walked into my Last-Lt-Green-prov-#41 and ripped my Lt Greens. So my hopeful orders of disbanding all my workers back into population, and converting THEM into armies, a paltry 10 new armies, actually worked at the end of T3!! Great! So, NOW when he comes and smashes it, at least he'll lose a few fighting for it, and not gain any POP or workers, hah! Except, Turn 4, STILL nobody came and took it out, the last Light Green prov, even though they went before Lt Green in the OOP. Wow. Escape. And Lt Greens happen tp go BEFORE my Lt Blues in the OOP. So, Lt Greens bomb neutral #40 ineffectively for my Lt Blues, while my Lt Blues bomb #42 effectively for my poor weak Lt Greens to then walk into, undefended, to gain some POP and strenfgth .... while the Lt Blues can, immediately after, thanks to the OOP, take Lt Green's old "last" prov of #41 and form a shield... Phew, it was that darn close! Less close now, hehe.

Now, Hryll (feel free to join in trewqh, really) has to wonder whether I have a huge force in #37 (I took it with 39 armies as he knows), or not! And will I RIP Brown? Or am I bluffing?!

LtGreen was too close to dying then, and now, looking at the OoP, Red has no chance of shielding Brown this turn. I don't think you'll miss out on this opportunity to get him, unless you moved most of your LtBlue's armies to #41 or you are worried that after being bombed the force from #37 will be too weak.

So now Hryll has to see through you, because if he thinks that you will attack Brown, he could do the same forcing a fight between Red and LtBlue. Or maybe that's too risky... Anyway that possibility might discourage you from attacking, Han.

Anyway, shielding LtGreen was very clever.

Well, we shall see. Prepare to be surprised. Or am I bluffing?!

[trewqh]

Now, Hryll (feel free to join in trewqh, really) has to wonder whether I have a huge force in #37 (I took it with 39 armies as he knows), or not! And will I RIP Brown? Or am I bluffing?!

You did take a neutral that had quite a lot of POP last turn and your score rose by 178 even though you fired enough missiles for LtGreen to take a neutral...

And of course you're bluffing! Even if you had said what you intended to do openly it would have been a double-bluff.

[Hannibal]

Yep, spot on. I'm either bluffing, double-bluffing, or disappearing up my own .... That's how I can talk here about future options without giving too much away!

OK, trewqh, what would you advise Hryll to do this turn?? No, that's unfair. Spectators MUST be able to chip in without knowing as much as the players do, so must be able to suggest maybes and longshots without fear of reprisals. So feel free to say what you might do, if it were you, limited to the knowledge you have, and nobody will say afterwards how wrong you were, OK? ie. win-win: if you're right you can crow about it, if you're wrong nobody can mention it! Except: you'll be wrong here. What are you suggesting Hryll consider?


Han

[trewqh]

If I were in Hryll's place, I wouldn't expect you to attack Brown head on this turn. I would expect you... to take DarkBlue's territory (be sure to let me know after the turn whether you considered it before reading this post) And I would expect you to do that because that'd be a good precaution against Brown trying to fall back into Red's territory (#24 or #27). I have no idea how are Red's resources distributed, but trying to hide Brown in #25 still seems an interesting option (if Brown actually needs to hide - I have insufficient input ). As for Red, I would seriously consider sending a scout attack (not the whole force) towards that LtGreen, that is unless my previous spying showed it's not worth it OR, on the other hand, if I had lots of MIS in #38, because then I would consider trying to break through to LtGreen with more than a scout unit.
But then... There's the problem of you getting more resources... Red has to think about that too...

I hope I made at least some sense... It's late, sorry.

[korexus]

Hang on.

Isn't Han just using trewqh to do his thinking here?

If trewqh posts on the board about what Hryll should do, Han can decide what to do to counter that strategy. (Assuming, of course, that trewqh posts something which makes sense.)

And all this bluff and double bluff stuff is getting to the point of silliness too. I think that if I were Hryll, I'd avoid reading this thread until after the game ends, so I couldn't fall into any traps that Han may be hiding amid his comentaries!


korexus.

[trewqh]

That's why I am including what I'd expect Han to do while suggesting what Hryll might do.

And I think such talk can only help, since to be successful you need to take into account as much scenarios as you can think of. Suggestions of the spectators may in some way inspire both sides of the conflict.

[Hannibal]

Hang on.

Isn't Han just using trewqh to do his thinking here?

Drat! Sussed me.

On the other hand .... if I were relying on trewqh's thinking ......!

Just kidding; trewqh is a bit brilliant at tactics .... the way he caned Korexus in that first Duel .....

But hey, pls don't put trewqh or anyone else off posting on games in progress?! It's nice to have people joining in a bit. Thanks trewqh.

[Hryllantre]

As far as I remember Turn1 went as planned. Having anticipated Lt Greens direction of attack thus removing Han's armies I was free to move as I pleased in that area.

On Turn2 I wanted to strengthen Browns position by taking another province on the autorobots route before it could grab the population and workers in #24. All the PoP and Wok we're transferred into my provinces to strengthen them, It's at this point that I messed up my movement orders therefore not being able to remove Lt Greens from the game on

Turn3 - (Turn3 is the 1st turn that intentional conflict can happen against any colour).

It was my intention to utilise my advantage at this stage by moving my Red's to reinforce my Oranges's. Oranges's we're only supposed to be an annoyance to Han, I hadn't expected them to survive against Lt Blues + Yellow's.

I then decided to split my RED forces *hint, hint* on the next turn to form a shield between my Brown's and Han's Light Blue's. I wouldn't of split my forces if my movements orders went as planned. Browns armies finished up on Turn3 in the only province that they couldn't attack anyone in...

The OOP should be in Han's favour this turn as he get's to go first mostly especially as Brown is last thus I cannot devise a plan between my RED's and Brown's (don't worry, I'm lost already). Yes trewqh I have thought of all the possibilities for this next turn:- Will Blue sidestep into Neutral #36 and let me attack myself RED->Brown - which should of been Lt Blue, or will Lt Blue attack into #34 to grab the accumulation of missiles and some valuable population and workers.

I'll report more after I've put my orders in as work beckons......
If I anticipate Lt Blues attacking my Brown's I can wipe out his attacking force from #27 via Dark Blue's #28

[Hryllantre]

Ok my orders are in now... Unfortuneately they we're a bit rushed due to many things but mainly the zillion armies I have to organise.

[Hannibal]

AFTER TURN 5

Problems with the zillion armies you had to organise? Well, I hope I just made your life easier by wiping out a lot of the zillions of armies so that you have a lot fewer to worry about! Unfortunately, you did the same to my zillions ......!

If I anticipate Lt Blues attacking my Brown's I can wipe out his attacking force from #27 via Dark Blue's #28

Ha! Now that the Turn 5 has run, this was blatantly trying to mislead me! The sheer cheek! Trying to mislead me as much as I'm trying to mislead you! What's the world coming to?

Anyway ....hell of a stunning turn, with surprises all over the place on both sides .... I'm still looking at it,

[Hannibal]

AFTER TURN 5

Wow, what a turn that was! Exciting or what!?

Maybe this is only for Hryll and me to compare notes after the Turn, but I'm writing it as if maybe some watchers want to follow the game and know why what happened happened.

In fact, if you wanna follow what I'm saying here, you'd best look at the map and click previous turn back to Turn 4, the situation just before this T5 ran.

Wow! Hryll did something brilliant in the East with his Browns against my Lt Greens .... I did something nearly as clever in the middle, my Lt Blues against his Reds .... and there was a big showdown between my Yellows and his Oranges in the West ....

First off, about the East bit where Hryll was a bit brilliant ..... Hmmm. I started out with a really clever idea ..... which backfired on me badly! Y'see, my Lt Blues deliberately had NO armies in the #37 that they took on T4 ... they had shifted round on move to the middle, #18. This was so that any missiles rained on #37 by Browns would be wasted; and so that my host of Lt Blues could come at Hryll's Browns from the rear, via #18, #19 and #21. Well, that was the plan, hiiting Browns in the rear, but those darn Reds came from nowhere and curtained off Brown's rear by taking #22 and #38 (Lt Blue and Red being napped).

Which meant that my Lt Greens, from their single remaining prov in #42, with new armies from there, could amaze my opponent by being the ones to charge through the empty Lt Blue provs #41 and #37 .... and take out that undefended Brown missile-silo I'd spied in #33 (Hey, 125 workers making missiles, no armies defending, my Lt Greens going early .... I could hardly pass up the chance to take it and turn those missiles to my benefit, to hit Brown or Red next turn.

If I were in Hryll's place, I wouldn't expect you to attack Brown head on this turn. I would expect you... to take DarkBlue's territory (be sure to let me know after the turn whether you considered it before reading this post) .

Trewqh, I DID consider taking RoboBlue's #34 as my Lt Green's 3rd attack, for all that POP; you weren't to know that #33 was an undefended huge missile silo, so I decided THAT was even more attractive ...more fool me as it turned out! Y'see, since I'd spied #33 as having 125 W but no armies, it meant that ALL Browns armies must be in his only other prov, #35. Great! Those Browns (and there turned out to be 61 of them in there!) were kinda land-locked, they'd either have to attack his own Reds, or else come #37, #41, #42 to try and take out my miserable Lt Greens ... He was BOUND to do that, I thought (Wrong!). So 40 or so Lt Greens happily marched into #41, and 17 of them went on to take that missile-silo in #33, the other half hanging back in #41 ...with #37's huge Def of 1.3, I was relaxed I could fight off 40 or 50 Browns "when" they tried to come through, and I'd also be the proud owner of the missile-silo as well. All went well at first, I parked a host in #41 and took #33.

Then the wheels came off! Hryll must have read my mind. Instead of attacking me in strong #41, he had ordered his Browns to attack his other Brown prov (that silo, #33), guessing I'd be there (tho he might've thought they'd be my Lt Blues he'd just have bombed in #37). So 61 Browns DID find my 17 Lt Greens there, and retook his missile-silo. Not only that, his victorious Browns, now with a high lev after 68 rounds of battle, went on to take Roboblue's #30 and neutral #31, for lots of POP to revive his depeted Browns with! Tcha!

So Trewqh was right. I SHOULD have taken Roboblue's #34 as my 3rd attack, because then #33 would still have been Brown, and ALL Brown's attack-orders would have been void. My misjudgement gave him a route to win POP.

Anyway, in another part of the war ....My Lt Blue host in #18 .... Now, since Reds armies I'd spied in #38 were not allowed to attack #37 (napped), wouldn't attack Brown #35, where Brown had dozens of armies, and wdnt have attacked out yet, and couldn't attack his own #22, then Reds either did nothing, or attacked neutral #21. He was bound to. After all, he didn't know I had a host of Lt Blues in #18 ....
And my Lt Blues were going BEFORE his Reds.... Lt Blues and Reds are napped (no attacking provs that are the other's at the START of the turn), but as Kor pointed out, that doesn't stop them "accidentally" fighting by going for the same province! Aha, a plan:

I took #19 and #21, parking 65 strong Lt Blue armies there in #21. Sure enough, Hryll's Reds had just bombed neutral #21, making it easier for me to take it, and then came piling into #21 with 24 strong Reds, expecting to meet some remaining neutrals and lots of POP, but instead finding 65 Lt Blue heavies there. The "napped" sides fought it out, Reds bouncing off after about 40 rounds, leaving me with the neutrals.

Meanwhile in the West, 10 optimistic Orange armies ran into my Yellows in #54 and bounced off, before my Yellows went on to nab a couple of Orange provs.

The net effect of that (if anyone is following this), is that Hryll has saved his Browns, by getting through to #30 and #31 for their POP. And weakened my Lt Greens AGAIN! But his Reds have been stopped in their tracks, and my Lt Blues are strong. Hryll might finish off my Lt Greens at about the same time my Yellows finish off his Oranges .... And Lt Blue and Red still can't fight for another 4 turns ... so it might come down to whether his Reds can kill my Yellows, or vice versa ....before my Lt Blues can get through to his Browns ....

[Hryllantre]

Turn5 - Interesting!

This turned into a very interesting encounter on all fronts it had a bit of everything

I purposely left #33 with no defence and ample Missiles + workers to attract Han's Lt Blues in through #37 to take the province. If Han had taken the bait it would of been a do or die encounter for us both thus nearly ending this Duel.

Even though I do not have any provinces set to Tech Pts (TP once accumilated allow you to purchase extra goodies (missiles, raise lvl of armies etc)) I set my orders so to attack 7 times (TP allow you to attack more than the default 3 att).

The 7 programmed attacks covered all eventualities as shown below:-

1. Anticipate my #33 being attacked - If noone attacked #33 I wouldn't of been able to attack myself - #33 is

2. #30 Dark Blue - to gain Workers, Missiles and Population.

3. #31 Neutral - To gain lot's of Population, Missiles and Workers.

---------------

My 4th programmed attack was just in case #33 wasn't taken.
In this instance it wasn't required as #33 was the target (but not by Lt Blues
4. #37 - Head on with Lt Blues. That battle is going to happen I just want it on my terms. Where'd Han go!?!
5. #41 - I'm gonna wipe those Lt Greens out.

6. #42 - Yes Lt Greens are gone at last - Alas this wasn't to be.

Han had not only deceived me by 'chickening out' of our #33, #37 encounter but prevented me from eliminating those pesky Lt G's.

One up to Han...

At least by attacking into #31 I have regrouped and have plenty of fresh armies and many more in the recruitment office.

Ummmm I haven't looked at what 'drat' happened on the Western Island I think I'll leave that for another time.

[Hryllantre]

Oh and I was a wee bit disappointed to see RoboGrey attack my Reds in #2.

I was under the impression that Robo-colours only attacked numerically downwards!?!

Oh well......

[korexus]

[Edit after splitting the thread]

Please note that Hryll's strategy would not work as he gave it. The Game Engine only looks at the first X attack orders (where X is dependent on tech points. If players built up tech points the strategy would work fine, but as it is maybe he got lucky...
[/Edit]

(Side note, the number of tech points for each attack are GM defined, in a game like Duel where players may not get much time to stay still and build, a GM could reduce those levels to allow for more dynamic attack options...)


Chris.

[Hannibal]

Oh and I was a wee bit disappointed to see RoboGrey attack my Reds in #2.

I was under the impression that Robo-colours only attacked numerically downwards!?!

Oh well......

Hryll, you prob looked it up in the rules by now .... but for anyone else wondering: the Roboplayers attack out only from the prov they took last turn, and they attack the adjacent prov withe lowest prov-number, regardless of their own prov-number. Therefore, not always DOWN from thier current prov-number, just the to the lowest AVAILABLE.

Han

BTW, I went back and edited my post above on the complexities of how Turn 5 turned out. In case, as Kor says, people might look back at it. I cut out some of the rambling; explained more about the Lt Blue decision in the middle; and I saluted trewqh for being right - I should have gone for Roboblue!

[korexus]

the Roboplayers attack out only from the prov they took last turn, and they attack the adjacent prov withe lowest prov-number, regardless of their own prov-number. Therefore, not always DOWN from thier current prov-number, just the to the lowest AVAILABLE.

And since Donut pointed out a possible flaw in the algorithm, they now attack the lowest number LEGAL province which neighbours the province they took in the previous turn. (This means, for example, if the target would be a home province on turn 2, the Robot will change course and attack the next lowest province instead.)

Good thought there, Donut.