DoW - NAP Breakers or not?

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DoW - NAP Breakers or not?

Post by Funtastick » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:09 am

This turn in Fredrick's Group #10 - Forest Lake, Trewqh and I were both spied on. In phase VII of the turn, only Massielita, Queen Pea, Trewqh and I were the only players with a score. After viewing Trewqh's turn report, it can be deduced Massielita and Queen Pea must have been the players to spy us out. It just so happens this is the last turn of peace, as next turn everything is fair game. Here is the info from Trewqh's report:

You located it ! The Spies came from Province # 13
<YOUR COMPLETE PLAYER DATA WAS SPIED OUT !!>
<YOUR PROVINCE # 14 WAS SPIED OUT !>
<YOUR PROVINCE # 10 WAS SPIED OUT !>
<YOUR PROVINCE # 14 WAS SPIED OUT !>
<YOUR PROVINCE # 10 WAS SPIED OUT !>
<YOUR PROVINCE # 39 WAS SPIED OUT !>
<YOUR PROVINCE # 35 WAS SPIED OUT !>

Here is the info from My report:

<YOUR PROVINCE # 50 WAS SPIED OUT !>

Because each player can only have 5 spying attempts each turn, both players had to have acted in this spying. I admit #9, #10 and #14 were fair game as they were Bjorn's provinces at the beginning of the turn, but some things have yet to be explained:

1) Why were 39, 35 and 50 spied out?
2) If Bjorn had only three provinces and they each had 5 spying options, why in the world would you use more spies to do a complete player spy operation, especially when the chances your soon-to-be enemy will be taking those provinces is very high?

If my memory serves me, there was a discussion on the boards a while back with somewhat of the same situation: someone did a complete player spy data. Again if my memory serves me, it was decided doing a full player spy was more an act of actually trying to spy the player out expected to take the province than to do the spying manually.

I honestly don't think there is anyway to make up for the damage that has already been caused. If anyone has thoughts or comments about this, please post them.

I have never broken a NAP, ever, I am a trustworthy player. I would expect a player with such high calibur as Massielita to hold true to the same values. If nothing happens out of all of this, BoV, for one, will be boycotting all NAP's with Massielita and Queen Pea, the perpetrators of thsi NAP, I suggest the rest of you do so as well, lest you be taken advatage of like Trewqh and I have been.

~Funtastick
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Post by Calidus » Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:25 am

Funtastick,

I think that you are one person that should shut the hell up about nap breaking and shady dealings. You HAVE broken agreements with ME on several occasions. When I tell someone that I am going to work with them against another player, I don't walk away from the fight. I am there until the end. And if you need a memory refresher, you screwed me over in Rolands 3d game. You ASKED ME to help you to kill Tbert in that game, and when I made my attacks against him, you ran in the opposite direction. The same thing happened against the scholars in a game shortly after that one. So step down off your high horse, you aren't impressing anyone with your little tyrade.

As for the the accusations against Massie and QP, I (among a whole lot of others around here) could give two peices of dog doo about your accusations. I have played more times against/with Massielita than most others around here have played at all. If you should chose not to trust him, that's your own mistake. I will gladly work with him any chance that presents itself. I trust him as well as I trust any of my own clanmates, and the same can be said about my former Clan Mate QP. Her record with me is also impeccable.

I expect every player I play to send spys into my territories on the turn before a nap is officially ended. Sometimes it happens, and it is nothing to go sniveling to the boards about. Most of the time it does not happen. When it does, I make dangnabbit sure that I remember it and give in kind what I have recieved. Live and learn.

To sum it all up,
Quit wasting our time with this drivel. Noone cares to hear your petty complaints about someone breaking a NAP. WHA WHA WHA. So life isnt fair. Hello, mcfly, you are playing a WAR GAME. Suck it up and shut the hell up. Really, noone wants to hear it anymore.

-Calidus

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Post by BigJOzzy » Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:02 am

LOL

Well I did talk to Funtastic about this before he put it up here. I will say this to all, I do not break naps.

Now yes I did spy out Bjorn provinces. If Trewqh had taken the time to tell me that he was taking the provinces then I would not have spied them out. However, he did not want to tell me he was so:

1 he could get armies close enough to attack me next round.
2 so maybe I would attack the same provinces and lose some armies to his armies.

So spying Bjorn was not against our nap.

Now the big picture here is the following this is A WAR GAME. You are either allied with someone or at war with them. If you are not allied with them then you can work with them, but it is a tempoary thing, and you are always looking for you best interest.

As it was BoV set up a nap and cannelled it 1 to 2 rounds later just because they had thing in hand.......so whats up.

I will never see that I have broken a nap here no matter what anyone says and that is what I think. If you have something to add in then do, but my feeling are set on this.

Massielita

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Post by Funtastick » Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:17 am

You ASKED ME to help you to kill Tbert in that game, and when I made my attacks against him, you ran in the opposite direction. The same thing happened against the scholars in a game shortly after that one. So step down off your high horse, you aren't impressing anyone with your little tyrade.
Sorry Calidus, I was actually the one to RIP Tbert. I also went on to win that game. I do acredit it somewhat to you helping me in the beginning, but by no means did I "abandon" you. I don't really recall what you mean with the scholars in a later game, you'd have to give me the GM/group number.
As for the the accusations against Massie and QP, I (among a whole lot of others around here) could give two peices of dog doo about your accusations. I have played more times against/with Massielita than most others around here have played at all. If you should chose not to trust him, that's your own mistake. I will gladly work with him any chance that presents itself. I trust him as well as I trust any of my own clanmates, and the same can be said about my former Clan Mate QP. Her record with me is also impeccable.
I'm sure a lot of people will actually listen to what I have to say because they know I tell the truth and don't lie. You're right, it was my mistake for trusting Massielita. He had a clean track record with me and everyone else for that matter. I'm simply doing this so that others know he is not as trustworthy as they may think and may reconsider signing NAPs with him in the future because of this. As for Queen Pea, I can't really say, but she did break the NAP as well and this is my first game with her, not a good start.
I expect every player I play to send spys into my territories on the turn before a nap is officially ended. Sometimes it happens, and it is nothing to go sniveling to the boards about. Most of the time it does not happen. When it does, I make dangnabbit sure that I remember it and give in kind what I have recieved. Live and learn.
You expect to have NAP's broken against you? I would follow your advice, but I'm never signing another agreement with Massielita nor Queen Pea, so that may be tough to accomplish.

Now for Massielita's comments.
Well I did talk to Funtastic about this before he put it up here. I will say this to all, I do not break naps.
I'm glad to see you don't consider spying #9, #10, #14 and #50 on other players who you have NAPs with breaking a NAP.
Now yes I did spy out Bjorn provinces. If Trewqh had taken the time to tell me that he was taking the provinces then I would not have spied them out. However, he did not want to tell me he was so:

1 he could get armies close enough to attack me next round.
2 so maybe I would attack the same provinces and lose some armies to his armies.
And that wasn't your exact intent of attacking Bjorn's provinces right next to mine? No, never, that would make almost, too much sense.
Now the big picture here is the following this is A WAR GAME. You are either allied with someone or at war with them. If you are not allied with them then you can work with them, but it is a tempoary thing, and you are always looking for you best interest.
Yeah it's a game, but you still expect people to live up to their reputations. Since you do not, I am informing people of that so they will learn from my overbearing trust upon you and your clanmate.

~Funtastick
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Post by BigJOzzy » Sat Sep 27, 2003 8:01 am

I will say it again since you didn't here it the first 5 times I told you. I did spy provinces that were Bjorns last turn, that is it. I was not told by either BoV player that they would be taking them and since Trewqh did not take any last turn, I thought it was a safe assuption that he wouldn't this turn either.

I do not appologize for this either.
And that wasn't your exact intent of attacking Bjorn's provinces right next to mine? No, never, that would make almost, too much sense.
No that is exactly what I was doing too last turn, that is why I did not cry when my provinces that I took from Bjorn were spied out. That is what I find so funny here, are you upset because I got better data then you did by my spying?
Yeah it's a game, but you still expect people to live up to their reputations. Since you do not, I am informing people of that so they will learn from my overbearing trust upon you and your clanmate.

My reputation has been around longer then this game and will be for alot longer. If you BoV has a problem with me then so be it, but I will stick with the fact that I did not break a nap.

Massielita

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Post by Bjorn » Sat Sep 27, 2003 12:28 pm

:popcorn:
It seems to me we've heard this song before....
(I forget the rest of the lyrics to that song. Maybe UD remembers them.)

Do what Bjorn highly recommends. Leave spying out of your NAPs. No missles/GCA's, magic or attacks against each other, but let the spies do their work. Sometimes I can get players to agree to this, other times they don't. If you are working with another player, chances are they are using their spies on someone else and not you anyway.
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Post by ThinKing » Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:17 pm

Funtastick wrote:I don't really recall what you mean with the scholars in a later game, you'd have to give me the GM/group number.

Cross Island.

You threw the game to me and Eg, and admitted as much in an email to me.


TK

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Post by Funtastick » Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:09 pm

No that is exactly what I was doing too last turn, that is why I did not cry when my provinces that I took from Bjorn were spied out. That is what I find so funny here, are you upset because I got better data then you did by my spying?
Let's see. I spied out one province that was Bjorn's because I thought there was an actual threat to my provinces. We knew Bjorn had sent a large amount of troops into the north, I was trying to figure out where they were so Trewqh and I could destroy them. By no means did we know you were going to take them, I mean, honestly, you didn't do a single thing to help us in the game, why would you start now. And actually, you didn't help, you didn't kill anything of Bjorns and just bettered your position, for all we know, you may have never ended your NAP's with them.
I was not told by either BoV player that they would be taking them and since Trewqh did not take any last turn, I thought it was a safe assuption that he wouldn't this turn either.
I absolutely love that sentence. Do you think you're fooling ANYBODY by saying you actually wanted info on Bjorn's 3 provinces? Nobody, not even Calidus would believe that was what you wanted. I still find it hillarious also that you try to defend a full player-data spy. Bjorn had three provinces, doing a full player-data spy would cost more spies - hold a greater chance for failiure - cost you more effectiveness if you failed with 5 spies spying them out indiviually. We've been over this on the boards before. I don't remmber which GM or Group, but I know it was Gardenic World and it involved Strider, don't remember the other player. It was decided that doing a full player-data spy on a player who has almost no provinces when the chances for your enemy to take that province that same turn were very high was considered cheating. Maybe you all forgot that, or maybe you all just think Massielita is high and might and can do what he wants without having to pay for it since he's been around longer than almost everyone. I know what I'm saying makes perfect sense, and I know Massielita can just keep saying that he only spied out Bjorn's provinces, but 9, 10, 14 and 50 were still spied out, not to mention the entire player data. DoW now has all of our army information and well, that's totally fair, right?

I'm not going to post anymore. It's evident what the dispute here is and I'll leave it up to you, the players, to decide any course of action on your own terms will be taken. Massielita nor Queen Pea will ever recieve a NAP from BoV again, I suggest any of you that have common sense do the same 'lest you be screwed over like Trewqh and I have.

~Funtastick

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Post by Polymorphic » Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:20 pm

Funtastick wrote:Let's see. I spied out one province that was Bjorn's because I thought there was an actual threat to my provinces.
Do you think you're fooling ANYBODY by saying you actually wanted info on Bjorn's 3 provinces? Nobody, not even Calidus would believe that was what you wanted.
Anyone else spot the contradiction?
ROTFLMAO

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Post by dr ozeric » Sat Sep 27, 2003 7:41 pm

schrunch this match is really good keep on going funtastic and the rest[/img]

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Post by Calidus » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:10 am

First and foremost, thank you TK for the game in which Funtastick showed his true colors. (actually the second game)
"Funtastick
Nobody, not even Calidus would believe that was what you wanted.
~Funtastick
Funtasuck, you do not know me enough to make an assanine statement like this. Do not assume that you would even begin to know what I would believe/think.

As for your winning the 3d game, of course you would kill Tbert. I killed 98% of his armies and provided you with 100% spy information as to his reamining provinces. Hell, even Ecrivian could have killed Tbert after that. Oh yeah, then I only had to fight Raven and TK. At least make an effort to know ALL of the facts before you run your mouth to me little boy.

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Post by Funtastick » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:22 am

hehe @ Funtasuck

I really couldn't resist putting this on here, just thought it sounded quite interesting. This is a quote from the Brotherhood Annals, I'm sure all of you will fnid it interesting, especially given Calidus' anger upon me.
April 13 Clan vote for possible exclusion of Brother Calidus comes back negative and Calidus stays in.
April 25 Brother Calidus has left The Brotherhood of Vayuna by choice of his own.
So that means someone wanted to expel Calidus for one of the following:
* A member of The Brotherhood of Vayuna is requierd to help out another member of The Brotherhood in any way possible or risk being declared an outcast.

* The word given by a warrior of The Brotherhood or any other warrior is to be respected until broken. The breaking of a word may result in being declared an outcast.

* A member of The Brotherhood of Vayuna is obliged to follow all the rules of The Brotherhood or risk being declared an outcast.
While he indeed was not voted out, someone still had voted him to be and he left only 12 days after the vote took place. It comes as no surprise to me now that Calidus doesn't care a bit about NAP breaking, as BoV has one of the best records for not breaking NAPs and persecutes anyone who is found guilty of doing so.

Sorry Calidus, but it's apparent you have no morals for this game, you've now been added to my do-not-NAP-with list as well.

~Funtastick

I swear I'm done posting now

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Post by trewqh » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:49 pm

I will just comment on some of the lateral statements and deal with the situation by sending an e-mail. I believe some of you will be proud of me. :P
Calidus wrote: I expect every player I play to send spys into my territories on the turn before a nap is officially ended. Sometimes it happens, and it is nothing to go sniveling to the boards about. Most of the time it does not happen. When it does, I make dangnabbit sure that I remember it and give in kind what I have recieved. Live and learn.
I can not agree with that. When a NAP forbids spying on turn x, I never expect the other side to break it. A NAP prevents things from happening on turn x as well as any other turn that is embraced by the pact.
Bjorn wrote:Do what Bjorn highly recommends. Leave spying out of your NAPs. No missles/GCA's, magic or attacks against each other, but let the spies do their work. Sometimes I can get players to agree to this, other times they don't. If you are working with another player, chances are they are using their spies on someone else and not you anyway.
Thought of it once myself, but I think I didn't present it in a proper way because Massie was quite angry when he replied that he didn't want to NAP with me at all in that game :lol:

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Post by BigJOzzy » Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:26 am

I think I am from the old school here. When I started WOK a hand shake was all you needed, and if someone didn't keep the hand shake, though this never happend to me, then you just didn't help them ever again. Simple as that. Now the idea of naps was always there, but the writen form has gotten more complex of late. On the other had an Alliance is something beyond the normal nap. In fact in more then one game I have told an ally that I wouldn't sign a formal Alliance because I was too week and wouldn't put them into that situation of having a dead weight.

The reason I bring up Alliances is this, if I sign a nap with you, then you are still my enemy. If I sign an alliance with you then you are my brother. Simple as that, naps are just conviences, to aid in getting started in a game. I don't always trust everyone with naps, and I don't sign too many naps in any game either. Sometimes I will even only sign one or two naps the whole game.


Thought of it once myself, but I think I didn't present it in a proper way because Massie was quite angry when he replied that he didn't want to NAP with me at all in that game
The reason I didn't agree to this is I didn't know you and therefor didn't trust you. Now I do, and now I do trust you Trewqh.

Massielita

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Post by Calidus » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:14 am

Lord Fredo or another of the Brotherhood,

Since noone over there seems to be enlightening the youngsters of your clan, I will give funtasuck a quick history lesson: The reason for the vote was an INADVERENT nap breaking. Yep I broke it. I don't deny it at all, and it was with Dameon that I broke the nap. I attacked a turn before our NAP was over. Dameon also recieved just recompense for my indiscretion. As per the BoV bylaws, (which I helped write, btw) a vote was cast for my expulsion. And, if my memory serves me properly, the only vote by any of the clanmates to vote me OUT of the BoV, was by Lord Fredo. who intialized the vote in the first place. As for leaving the BoV, I left in order to help form the Red Branch Knights with Bicco, QP and one other, but I cannot remember who at this time. Shortly thereafter, I also left the RBK and formed CoN. What have you done?

And Funtasuch, don't worry about EVER having to sign a nap with me, you had made that list a LOONNG time ago.

Trewq,
I would that your simplistic look on NAPs be true. Too many newer players, and I wont mention any names, funtasuck, try to bend every word of a nap that they possibly can. For the players that I trust, do you know what my NAP offer contains? It is this following statement: Do you want a nap through turn X? The players that I offer this nap to understand what it means to have a NAP, and aren't in need of shady play to try to win a VP or two.

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Post by Funtastick » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:39 am

Well Caldius, I honestly was going to stop with his, because you're right, nobody wants to hear about it anymore, but since you seem to be willing to keep going right on, I will too.

I will mention this and only this. I remember long ago, in one of my earlier games I do believe it was, Butcher, from the Circle of Nine, spied me the turn before our NAP was over. I presented this information to you and you kicked him out of your clan for doing so. Doesn't that mean what you're doing now is complete contradiction to yourself?

And yeah, you started a clan with Queen Pea? Does that means you're friends with her and why you are defending her in this as well?

~Funtastick (Note the stick part of that)

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Post by Goat Herder » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:45 am

Funtastick wrote:This is a quote from the Brotherhood Annals, I'm sure all of you will fnid it interesting....etc.etc.etc....
Funty - that's past history, and there's nothing in what happened back then that can be used to discredit Calidus in any way --- and it's certainly not worth bringing up just for the sake of making an argument. What Calidus says is true --- we didn't vote him out --- he simply decided to start up a new clan at a time when the Brotherhood had found its feet and was starting to perform very well, obviously in the hope that he could repeat the successes of the Brotherhood with his new clan. As history shows, he did that with ease --- albeit not immediately with the RBKs, but with the CoN shortly afterwards.

Ohhh-another thing. I don't think that putting down Calidus, Massielita & QP all in the same breath is a very good way to win friends and influence people.
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Post by Lord Fredo » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:23 pm

Calidus wrote:Lord Fredo or another of the Brotherhood,

Since noone over there seems to be enlightening the youngsters of your clan,
Actually I did advice Funtastick on the nature of the mentioned events in person after I read about this here. It would also seem that my memory serves me about as good as yours do you since what you told us here sounds about exactly like what I told Funtastick.
I was not very pleased to see this part of history be brought up by someone who did not know all the facts in the case and I did my best to inform Funtastick of the true nature of what he brought up afterwards.

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Post by Mylantis » Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:33 pm

I think Calidus had it right when he said the following.........its just too bad he didn't read it after he wrote it.........

"Quit wasting our time with this drivel. Noone cares to hear your petty complaints about someone breaking a NAP. WHA WHA WHA. So life isnt fair. Hello, mcfly, you are playing a WAR GAME. Suck it up and shut the hell up. Really, noone wants to hear it anymore."
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Post by Warped Angel » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:24 pm

Hey I got an idea how bout no more Naps!!!! that would kick ass!!!!! :2thumbs:
When injustice is law, resistance is duty

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