New Game: Center Island

All about the online version of classic WOK games.

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trewqh
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Post by trewqh » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:41 am

You can't spy out home provinces. This prevents players, with an OoP advantage, from using all of their spy orders on the home province of an enemy to drain their EFF.

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Saladin
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Post by Saladin » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:46 am

dangnabbit...that's a crap change.

Is there anywhere in the rules where this is written down, because i think that a lot of 'old' players will not know about this change when they come back and start a game again.
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Post by korexus » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:25 am

I'm planning to rationalise the engine this weekend. It's getting a bit crowded with exceptions and IF statements, I've probably left a loophole somewhere. If you've got a strong argument, now's the time to make it.

(The original argument went like this)
Sab and Steal options aren't powerful enough.
Allow them to work long range
That's too harsh on turn 1, introduce a headhunting rule
It's really confusing having two rules for spying. Ban everything on turn 1.

EFF loss didn't actually come in to it, that's an added bonus (and not actually as big as everyone makes it out to be...)


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Post by trewqh » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:32 am

Well, I think the EFF thing is crucial. If I go first in the OoP, then everyone can spy on my home province, leave me with a crappy EFF and not chance to retaliate before next turn. And next turn my performance is much worse than everybody else's because of the low EFF and all due to the unlucky OoP.

And I think it's possible to make it self-explanatory in the houserules. Like in my Austrian Apocalypse.

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Post by Saladin » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:06 pm

Actually if you go first in the OoP and you spy that other player first and drop his eff that way, there's a much bigger chance that his spy attempts will fail.

Anyway, i don't like the change, but i can see a point in it being easier to understand than allowing spying but not sabotage and pop stealing.

Also how about making sabotage and pop stealing a bit more powerful so they become a more viable option. How about:

- Sabotage missiles. Every spy used will destroy 4 missiles.
- Sabotage defenses. Every spy used will destroy .2 Defense.
- Steal population. Every spy used will steal 20 population.

Increasing this will make especially sabotage a more attractive option.

Though the idea of making the headhunting rule two turns standard is just plain silly and i strongly oppose that idea.
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Post by trewqh » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:19 pm

You're welcome to read through the agruments already mentioned and comment on them in this thread:
http://www.kaomaris.com/phpNuke/modules ... pic&t=1393

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Post by Lardmaster » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:25 pm

Just picked this thread up. Where did it say about not being able to spy a guys home prov in turn one? Thats just what I have done, are they not going to work?
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Post by trewqh » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:32 pm

Lardmaster wrote:Just picked this thread up. Where did it say about not being able to spy a guys home prov in turn one? Thats just what I have done, are they not going to work?
In the houserules.

Which, as Saladin truly pointed out, are not 100% clear whether it means all kinds of spying actions or all except option 1 - spying out province information.

In fact, all kinds of spying actions on home provinces are not allowed in this group on turn 1.

Your orders will not work. But I can't remember whether the used spies are lost or not. Kor?

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Post by korexus » Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:20 pm

@trewqh. Really? How often in a game has everyone spied on the player
who is first in the OOP? Also, as Sal points out you can get the hit in first against one player and do quite well out of it.

Unless you're going to hit someone right from the start, you're better of only using 1 or 2 spies on the first turn. Maybe I shouldn't mention that... :oops:

The spies are not lost, the engine just rejects the order.


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Post by Lardmaster » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:21 pm

What a cack rule :(
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Post by Lardmaster » Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:23 pm

And while I am in moan mode, it's a cack map too. :evil:

Are we still allowed to design new maps and stuff?
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Post by trewqh » Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:54 pm

korexus wrote:@trewqh. Really? How often in a game has everyone spied on the player
who is first in the OOP? Also, as Sal points out you can get the hit in first against one player and do quite well out of it.
It is enough for two opponents to go after you for you to be unfairly disadvantaged if they can go at your home province to damage your EFF. The rule I am arguing for ensures that a player's ability to predict his opponents' moves is more important than being lucky with OoP.

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Post by trewqh » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:00 pm

Lardmaster wrote:And while I am in moan mode, it's a cack map too. :evil:

Are we still allowed to design new maps and stuff?
Not my favourite either. My position is safe, but I don't like sleeping. Good thing I have an arrangement with Kikker that will allow me to wreak havoc on the Center Island. :twisted:

I'm certain you can still make new maps. But I don't think I ever knew how one would do it.

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Post by korexus » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:19 pm

LM. Send me a map and an ini, just like in the old days. I can add them when I get a minute.

trewqh. If two players are going to gang up on you to hurt EFF they can just as easily do it the turn after. - The big fights rarely happen before turn three and missiles anyway...
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Post by trewqh » Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:59 pm

korexus wrote:If two players are going to gang up on you to hurt EFF they can just as easily do it the turn after.
Yes, if they outmanouvered their opponent and see that lowering his EFF is more important than intelligence then they will do that. But without such a rule they will by default hit the home province without having to anticipate their opponents moves (unless they don't realise the importance of EFF). I will repeat that this rule prevents obvious behavior of players with a lucky OoP.

Now, in case someone wants to be smart :P, disallowing spying on provinces owned by players (so allowing to spy only neutrals and having to guess where your opponents may go) would make the game even more demanding in terms of prediction skill, but why I don't think it's necessary beyond turn 2 is that intelligence expires quickly and once your opponent has 6 or 7 provinces you do need to think where to send your spies to have beest results.
korexus wrote: The big fights rarely happen before turn three and missiles anyway...
And how is that an argument for your side? :) If decisive battles don't take place during the first two turns then the rule I'm arguing for does not change anything does it? :P

But seriously, big and decisive do happen during the first two turns. Either when two players meet 'by accident' when they try to take the same neutral, buy also, and more importantly, when one player RIPs another on the 2nd turn. You say it doesn't happen often, but my impression, based on experience (both as the winner and loser :roll: ) is exactly opposite. I think it's so common that it should be limited to make the game less luck dependant.

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Post by korexus » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:19 pm

Because, if the big fights happen on turn 3, then your two on one scenario will just default to the two players spying at the end of the second turn on a province that the one did manage to take during the first turn. Banning headhunting with spies on turn 1 (or turns 1 and 2) doesn't fix this anyway, so the rule is useless. Just not making anything worse is not a reason to do something...

Checking the database shows 27 games since WoK went online with a grand total of 0 RIPs on turn 2, 7 RIPs on turn 3, 5 of which were 1 on 1s and one of which was a Duel game.

And really, even in the situation you describe, the EFF hit from spying is the smallest of the problems...


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Post by trewqh » Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:08 am

korexus wrote:Because, if the big fights happen on turn 3, then your two on one scenario will just default to the two players spying at the end of the second turn on a province that the one did manage to take during the first turn. Banning headhunting with spies on turn 1 (or turns 1 and 2) doesn't fix this anyway, so the rule is useless. Just not making anything worse is not a reason to do something...

And really, even in the situation you describe, the EFF hit from spying is the smallest of the problems...
You seem to be right :) Now if only I had what it takes to check it statistically (I mean EFF after turn 1 depending on position in OoP but regardless of NAPs) then it would be possible to change my mind about this thing rooted in my intution that this rule makes the game more sophisticated. :)
korexus wrote:Checking the database shows 27 games since WoK went online with a grand total of 0 RIPs on turn 2, 7 RIPs on turn 3, 5 of which were 1 on 1s and one of which was a Duel game.
Are you sure that you didn't mistake the game engine's turn number with the 'player/human' turn number? (To the one's that find this question odd - the first turn when orders are processed is turn 2 from the game engine's perspective) Becuase I did RIP you on turn 2 in the first Duel :)
http://www.kaomaris.com/phpNuke/modules ... 4&TurnNR=3

And another example from a Standard game:
http://www.kaomaris.com/phpNuke/modules ... 0&TurnNR=3

And I have to say that in this case a noob was affected. Did anyone see Ada since?

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Post by korexus » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:47 am

trewqh wrote:Are you sure that you didn't mistake the game engine's turn number with the 'player/human' turn number?
:oops: The query I ran was select where status=RIPed and TurnNR=3, so yes, my turn numbers are out by one... :oops:
trewqh wrote: And another example from a Standard game:
http://www.kaomaris.com/phpNuke/modules ... 0&TurnNR=3

And I have to say that in this case a noob was affected. Did anyone see Ada since?
I have. She came to my birthday party a couple of months back. :P

For those of you who want to see the full list of games, they are;
5, 13, 37, 40, 43, 53 (just change the gameID in the URL of a game page to check them out).

For completeness then, there are 11 further cases of someone being RIPed on turn 3, 8 of which are from Standard games. I haven't checked the missed turn status of any of these players.

Anyway, as I said way up ^ there, the main reason that spy province orders were included in houserules was for consistency. This will become annoying, however, if GMs start giving 2 turns of safety from spies for home provinces.


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Post by trewqh » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:44 am

Anyone is welcome to check in how many of theose 2nd turn RIPs the winner went later in the OoP on turn 1 but earlier on turn 2. I bet that's most of the cases if not all of them.

And in case of EFF it will be a matter of the GM's fancy until we have satistical data. :roll: Some will see this rule as annoying, others as making the game more fair and harder.

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Post by Kikkertje » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:00 am

Is this about Center Island?

I'm awaiting Kor's turn evaluation reports for the Forest and Center island games :)

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