Coming up: Smart AOFs, WOK-ON defaults and Themed WOK

All about the online version of classic WOK games.

Moderators: Duke, trewqh, korexus

User avatar
Saladin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Saladin » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:55 pm

Why don't all you guys who hate a bit of luck in a game just go and play diplomacy?
"Never attribute to malice what can satisfactorily be explained away by stupidity."

"To speak ill of others is a dishonest way of praising ourselves."

User avatar
Hannibal
Commander
Commander
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:00 am
Location: London and The Vulkings Clan.............(started in Valn Ohtar, then jointly founded The Vulkings)

Post by Hannibal » Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:18 pm

I agree with my friend Sal. An element of luck makes you look forward to seeing the TR to see what happened, rather than boringly knowing in advance how it will turn out. This is a game of skill AND fortunes of war, surely, as a change from Diplomacy and Chess.....so that TR's are all the more thrilling and exciting to look forward to, and so that you can take long-shots and hope to succeed. A different experience. Not better or worse, just a unique mix of skill and luck, a nice exciting combo, otherwise it would be Chess....which I like but don't need another of....that's not where WOK's special appeal lies.

And, hey, let's stop talking as if use of missiles is 99% luck factor!! Good use of missiles takes an awful lot of thinking and skill (unless you just get lucky!). You've usually got to create them in time, (instead of deciding to use your WOK on other things), move them to the right place, often in a combined attack-and-move-up miss combo), choose the right places to spy, or outguess where the opponent's armies might be, using both scouting attacks and spying to suss out where it might be worth bombing, then work out the best places to bomb, often a choice of different weights on different provs, THEN let fly and hope for luck.

This is even more requiring of skill if you are using missiles to stop a Big-Sleeper-Breakout.........no point planning to bomb where he USED to be, you have to double-guess where he might attack out to first.....and where he might pull his armies back to.....and try to spy the right provs.....and then know or guess whhere to bomb....IF you moved miss into the right place to anticipate his breakout in THAT direction and are within bombing distance, especially since you didn't know how many attacks he would make, nor how far he might or might not pull back his armies.......

Plus more complex options.....like attacking BEHIND his heavies in order to pin them where they are on move, so that moving up your miss can bomb the heavies without them being able to retreat first.....that usually needs a commitment to TEC in time to be able to do such a round-the-back attack.....

Not to mention the fact that your missiles might get captured and used against you ! Which is not a risk if you go for the less skilful option of armies and lev.......You might have to even dump the missiles to avoid capture, or choose whether to fire them at somewhere unlikely or risk saving them to bomb elsewhere more effectively later..... lots of judgement-calls, and I'd say that calls for skill.

And then there's the SKILL required from the opponent.....not to get pinned......not to be predictable where he stops with his heavies...or to spread his heavies in 1's and 2's and 3E's to be harder to bomb without wastage.......or even to con the missile-owner into wasting 62 missiles on empty provs where he fooled him into thinking he had left his armies.......or to hang back for a turn......or go capture the missiles!.....Poorer players will lose out to missiles more often than good players will.....I call that a skill element, too!

OCCASIONALLY, use of missiles is a matter of luck. More usually, at the big moments in games, it's highly skilled and requires a lot of multi-turn planning/ production/movement/spying/educated guesswork ....far MORE than just stomping forward with 150 lev 5's EVER does!! Sure, THEN there's the luck element of what damage you do, but let's not underplay the skill it takes to get you there for the luck to come into play......

It's (usually, not always), a lot like Backgammon or Poker........a large element of chance, but an awful lot of skill in using the chance.

Sure there are extremes (OK, reduce the extremes), sure, you can just get lucky, but mostly, when it swings a game, use of missiles is a highly skilled endeavour of strategy, planning, spying, psychology and best-guesswork. Or, you can just get lucky. Let's hear it for missiles as a skill factor, not JUST a luck factor!

~ Han

User avatar
korexus
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2827
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:00 am
Location: Reading
Contact:

Post by korexus » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:07 pm

Han, no one's arguing with any of that...

Missiles involve luck. Yes. So does spying, so do attacks. So does the placement of players at the start of the game. We're not trying to eliminate luck from WoK, just keep it within reasonable levels!

We're not even that bothered about players getting lucky with missiles and winning a game which they didn't deserve. The bigger problem is that you're equally likely to be very unlucky with your missiles. - I can think of a few times that's happened to me and it's a good reason to use more reliable methods. All the elements of skill you mentioned would still be available under the new system, we're simply trying to find a way to ensure when a player plays well and demonstrates that skill he isn't just going to die because of one unlucky turn...


The proposed system still isn't perfect. - The numbers will need tweaking a bit, and maybe we should have a "don't aim" option so Han can go for the luck factor if he wants, but if new players see a reward for their planning they're more likely to stick around and if old players see a reliable way to play an active game they might start playing it.


korexus.
With Great Power comes Great Irritability

User avatar
Dameon
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Valn Ohtar Chapterhouse

Post by Dameon » Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:13 pm

As Kor said, what we are trying to do is keep luck to a reasonable level. The number of times that the outcome of a game has been decided 100% on luck for me with missiles is not negligable, but I've never had that situation arise with any other factor of the game except possibly the spy player data. A little luck isn't always a bad thing, but when it causes you to basically win or lose a game on a regular basis, it's just too much.

I do like the idea of having a "don't aim" option as well, though. That way, those of you that are so enamored with the luck factor in missiles can still have it come into play for you, and everybody wins, no?
"A Knight is sworn to valor, his heart knows only virtue, his blade defends the helpless, his might upholds the weak, his word speaks only truth, his wrath outdoes the wicked."

User avatar
Hannibal
Commander
Commander
Posts: 886
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:00 am
Location: London and The Vulkings Clan.............(started in Valn Ohtar, then jointly founded The Vulkings)

Post by Hannibal » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:56 pm

I agree with both of those posts, for what it's worth. And yep, you're right, I underplayed the issue of BAD luck with poor results from your OWN missiles ruining good play and a good plan. So I agree we should "narrow" the luck parameters, eg by making it two stages of luck (whether you hit, and whether you hit armies), rather than 3 stages......or some other way of narrowing the outcomes, fine.

I mostly wrote it because the huge preponderance of veteran comment on missiles is that they are ONLY a luck factor, whereas, as I say, good use of them requires far more planning, co-ordination and skill than just stomping forward to anywhere-you-lke with a huge stack of armies ever does !! Or you can just get lucky.....I'm saying they're a skill element as well as a luck element! Don't knock 'em as luck-only!

It's partly to counter the persistent comments about WOK4 being only a playpen.....from Gone/ aka PS (Patroni-Sing) ....Dameon might like that one!

Net, yep, narrow the luck on them. Just don't keep viewing them as only a luck-factor!

I think Egbert might be wrong for once (I want someone else taking offence at me?) I THINK you are not net-reducing the effectiveness of missiles........you are ALLOWING targetting of missiles so that all shots COULD be at armies, then making 1 miss kill 1 army if you hit.......such that you would hit armies 4X as often, if you chose that, but with a reliable one-third the average effect per missile-hit.......so about as strong. Good. Missiles require so much skill (before the luck-bit) that I'd hate to reduce their effectiveness the way that Egbert fears.........

Chris, you're doing a fantastic job here. Work-rate, skill, insight, listening and replying. Respect.

~ Han
There are two ways to write: Short-hand, and Long-Han'ed. ~ Han

"If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs"......... it's probably just that you're the last person to appreciate the enormity of the catastrophe about to

User avatar
TK
Trooper
Trooper
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 7:00 am

Post by TK » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:13 pm

Hannibal wrote:It's partly to counter the persistent comments about WOK4 being only a playpen.....from Gone

Its good to know you were listening. :wink:

User avatar
Brykovian
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA ... Clan: Scholars
Contact:

Post by Brykovian » Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:01 pm

Hannibal wrote:Gone/ aka PS (Patroni-Sing)
:lol:

-Bryk
Matt Worden Games ... Gem Raider, DareBase, Castle Danger, Keeps & Moats Chess

User avatar
Saladin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Saladin » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:20 pm

korexus wrote:Han, no one's arguing with any of that...

Missiles involve luck. Yes. So does spying, so do attacks. So does the placement of players at the start of the game. We're not trying to eliminate luck from WoK, just keep it within reasonable levels!

We're not even that bothered about players getting lucky with missiles and winning a game which they didn't deserve. The bigger problem is that you're equally likely to be very unlucky with your missiles. - I can think of a few times that's happened to me and it's a good reason to use more reliable methods. All the elements of skill you mentioned would still be available under the new system, we're simply trying to find a way to ensure when a player plays well and demonstrates that skill he isn't just going to die because of one unlucky turn...
Nice bit spin oh wise clan leader. :P

Bottom line is that missiles will become a lot less useful. If only for the fact that if you have to aim them at something you actually have to know what's in the province in the first place so a lot of missiles will just go to waste, which isn't the case now as you can still hit any of the other things.
The proposed system still isn't perfect. - The numbers will need tweaking a bit, and maybe we should have a "don't aim" option so Han can go for the luck factor if he wants
Well i guess that would be a decent solution, adding this option. Not because it's luck based but more because you then can bomb a province without actually knowing what's in it on forehand.
"Never attribute to malice what can satisfactorily be explained away by stupidity."

"To speak ill of others is a dishonest way of praising ourselves."

User avatar
Saladin
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: The Netherlands

Post by Saladin » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:23 pm

Dameon wrote:As Kor said, what we are trying to do is keep luck to a reasonable level. The number of times that the outcome of a game has been decided 100% on luck for me with missiles is not negligable, but I've never had that situation arise with any other factor of the game except possibly the spy player data. A little luck isn't always a bad thing, but when it causes you to basically win or lose a game on a regular basis, it's just too much.
Hannibal wrote:Poorer players will lose out to missiles more often than good players will.....I call that a skill element, too
I agree 100% with Han here. :P
"Never attribute to malice what can satisfactorily be explained away by stupidity."

"To speak ill of others is a dishonest way of praising ourselves."

User avatar
Dameon
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1056
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Valn Ohtar Chapterhouse

Post by Dameon » Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:00 pm

I don't know that I do agree with Han there. There's so much luck involved iwth missiles right now that it totally negates the need for good spy data, sometimes. A poor player might not have spy data, shoot a bunch of missiles off blindly, and wipe out a lot of armies. The good player might have the spy data, know exactly what he is aiming for, and under the current system might hit very few armies. That just doesn't make any sense; having good spy data should be rewarded in some ways wouldn't you say?
"A Knight is sworn to valor, his heart knows only virtue, his blade defends the helpless, his might upholds the weak, his word speaks only truth, his wrath outdoes the wicked."

User avatar
korexus
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2827
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:00 am
Location: Reading
Contact:

Post by korexus » Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:01 pm

Here's what I'd propose for missiles.

We allow aiming at armies, defences, missiles, spies and tech points. I'll listen to arguments about POP and WOK, I can see some cases where they'd be used. But normally, if you're able to missile someone you're able to attack them too so you'll want to keep the resources alive.
If we tweak the numbers properly we can keep the kill rate and deaths/missile at about the same level as it is currently, reduce it if it's too powerful or even increase it (as we may need to do with spies since they got better) so we don't need to worry about the overall effectiveness of missiles too much.

I would add a further option of "blanket bomb" which would be the default if nothing was selected as a target. This could work in one of three ways,

1) The missiles could be distributed randomly between all the possible targets, counting as an extra miss if there is no such unit. (Same as current)

2) The missiles could be distributed only between the targets which are actually in the province.

3) The missiles could be distributed only between the targets in the province and the chance of hitting any particular target could be scaled by how many of that target there is there. (Eg 99 missiles, 1 army => you'll probably hit missiles. 100 armies, 5 spies => you'll most likely get an army.)

My personal preference is the third option, but it rquires the most thinking. Blanket bombing should really be used as an option when you're not completely sure what's in a province so it shouldn't become more effective at knocking out a single target than aiming at that target would. On the bright side, it would allow for more strategies to be built up around missiles. (For instance, players could build a tech 'shield' by producing loads of tech points, thus increasing the chances of blanket bombings hitting that instead of armies.)

Thanks for talking me up, Han. I'll try to pretend I haven't spent the last 48 hours sitting around doing absolutely nothing! :P


Chris.
With Great Power comes Great Irritability

User avatar
phred
Recruit
Recruit
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:00 am

Post by phred » Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:00 am

korexus wrote:Here's what I'd propose for missiles.
We allow aiming at armies, defences, missiles, spies and tech points. I'll listen to arguments about POP and WOK, I can see some cases where they'd be used. But normally, if you're able to missile someone you're able to attack them too so you'll want to keep the resources alive.
AFAIK, the ancient missiles of the WOK era seem to be terribly inaccurate. A missle aimed at the local army barracks is just as likely to hit the neighboring block of flats :bomb:. Only the modern-day US ones seem to have improved on those odds :mrgreen: . If I could aim the dangnabbit things at Offence (armies, spies, missiles), Infrastructure (defence, tech points, missiles) or Population (POP, workers, armies), then that's close enough for me :winkwink: . If I aim at one target then I would expect some collateral damage (eg. a missile aimed at the army barracks would be expected to wipe out a few POP or defences by accident). I think the best Defence Department programmers that WOK has on offer (whoever you may be) could come up with suitable damage calculations and collateral effects based on the above premise.

In other words--allow players to aim missiles, but not be totally exclusive to that target.

Must go. Have to write some Christmas card to some friends.

User avatar
Raw
Commander
Commander
Posts: 769
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:00 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA
Contact:

Post by Raw » Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:11 pm

Well put Phred, now who the hell are you?
It's not fast unless its got a fart can.

Post Reply