Rewriting WOK4

Mullog · Post by **Mullog** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:15 am

Before summer arrived and Chris still tried to focus on his exams we had an interesting chat about WOK4. It turned out that we both had been thinking about rewriting the WOK4 game enginge and at the same time making it more accessible to new gm's.
We were thinking of making an online version of the game manager where you could run games via your web browser instead of on your own computer. This should make a GM's life much easier since he would not have to make a separate webpage for his games (it would be enough to write the comments), he would not have to enter all the orders into the game manager and then sending out the turn reports manually (computers are good at such repetitive work), and it would be much easier for another GM to take over a game since all game information would be stored on the kaomaris.com web server.
It would even be possible to build an auto-gm where the computer did all the work, but I am sceptical to how fun that would be. IMO, part of the fun with WOK is having a GM that controls the game.
Anyway, I am wondering what you people think of this. Would it be useful or should be focus on other stuff?
If we did rewrite the game engine it would be possible to modify how the game works. Is there anything you would like to change? Possibly any new optional rules we could add? Or should we scrap the idea and focus on other stuff?

Post by **ThinKing** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:29 am

Mullog wrote:If we did rewrite the game engine it would be possible to modify how the game works. Is there anything you would like to change? Possibly any new optional rules we could add?

How about reducing the effect of +LEV, but increasing the LEV bonus of being victorious in battle?

Also you could create some kind of economy, using feeding, taxes, that sort of thing.

You could even introduce spells!!

Wait a second....

Lille · Post by **Lille** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:48 am

Brilliant idea Mull. Makes the GM-tasks seem much less daunting.

Lille

Post by **Duke** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:57 am

This would be a huge improvement if you ask me.

Not only would it be easier for the GM's like Lille said, if you did add a computerized automatic GM then we could actually use it for times like this when it is slow and we could guarantee newbies that there would be a game for them.

I am sure that people would prefer the GM'ed games ahead of the automatic ones but it would be a nice addition.

Like I started, the online version would be great in itself. An automatic GM would be a bonus.

/D.

Post by **Egbert** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:47 am

Mullog wrote:We were thinking of making an online version of the game manager where you could run games via your web browser instead of on your own computer. This should make a GM's life much easier since he would not have to make a separate webpage for his games (it would be enough to write the comments), he would not have to enter all the orders into the game manager and then sending out the turn reports manually (computers are good at such repetitive work), and it would be much easier for another GM to take over a game since all game information would be stored on the kaomaris.com web server.

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

If you guys design something like that, I have a strong suspicion that we would see a LOT more GM'ing going on, a lot more games, and a lot more fun.

Post by **trewqh** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:31 pm

That got me thinking - wouldn't such an engine allow one of the players to run the turns?

From what I understood, with this engine it would be easy to prevent the GM from seeing any private player data. Of course not anyone could be a player/GM, but I'd say that members of our community who get a 'credit of trust' from the WSC could act as player/GM. You might think that this might lead to biased decisions regarding for example delaying turns and reruns but I think that it would be just a matter of trust from the players. Even now noone can be 100% sure that GMs don't make biased decision (ie. favouring their own clan).

All in all, I think that WOK4 online would make traditional WOK 4 GMing obsolete and I like the trend. It would also make WOK 4 GMing so much easier and less demanding that almost anyone could be a WOK 4 GM.

I'm all for it.

trewqh - the player of 666 posts

Post by **trewqh** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:35 pm

Another idea - how about revealing the formula of score calculation and putting it under an open debate?

I, for one, think that the number of provinces you have shouldn't even give a positive bonus to the score, since it drains EFF and the only things you get from it is being able to breed POP in more places (I doubt if it's that valuable) and distribute your workers in more ways (valuable, but is it worth the bonus?)

trewqh

Brykovian · Post by **Brykovian** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:48 pm

{Bryk ducks in from his favorite lurking spot among the shadows}

A while back, I also had a similar thought about writing a new WOK4 manager, although I hadn't considered an online option ... then, after an interesting/informative chat with Mullog, I realized that it was better left in his hands.

Here are a couple new/updated options I'd be interested in seeing, without changing the game too much ...

Geographic "Long Distance" Neighbors ... instead of the normal plus- or minus-3 on the province number to determine long distance neighbors, the long distance neighbors could simply by the "neighbors of my neighbors". So, if province #14 neighbors #16 and #16 neighbors #27 -- then #27 would be in long-distance missile range for #14. You'd have to look at the map to figure out neighbors ... but it would be a touch more realistic.

Directed Missiles ... The last parameter of the missile orders could be used to direct missiles at specific targets ... first digit would be a letter to indicate the target (A-armies, W-workers, P-population, S-spies, E-EFF, M-Missiles, etc.) and the second digit would give the number of missiles to fire, using the same numbering scheme as WOK5 attacks (1 to 9, X = 10, F = 15, etc.). The manager software would simply have to see if the first digit of that last parameter was a number ... if so, use the standard random missile routine ... if it's a letter, use the directed missile routine.

I'd also be fine with some sort of Army retreat or WOK5-style "send all but 1" type attack orders. And maybe build-up-to TECH levels (instead of the up-and-down tech points) and something akin to spy codes ... although I could take or leave these last two.

I don't really like the idea of putting an economic/production/feeding component into WOK4 ... keep it simple, says I, with just a few tweaks to make things more player-controlled.

-Bryk

{Bryk returns to the shadows}

Post by **Egbert** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:24 pm

Those are very good ideas Bryk, and I am all for them (especially the long-range missile idea). However, I think we may find that most WOK4 players don't want their world even a tiny bit more complicated. But, if we ever do add improvements to WOK4, how about calling it WOK4 and a half?

Post by **trewqh** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:20 pm

Brykovian wrote:Geographic "Long Distance" Neighbors ... instead of the normal plus- or minus-3 on the province number to determine long distance neighbors, the long distance neighbors could simply by the "neighbors of my neighbors". So, if province #14 neighbors #16 and #16 neighbors #27 -- then #27 would be in long-distance missile range for #14. You'd have to look at the map to figure out neighbors ... but it would be a touch more realistic.

All for it. A very good idea, but won't it be too difficult to code? Hmm probably not a lot more difficult that coding regular neighbours, right? It would just include more calculations to be made by the engine, right?

Directed Missiles ... The last parameter of the missile orders could be used to direct missiles at specific targets ... first digit would be a letter to indicate the target (A-armies, W-workers, P-population, S-spies, E-EFF, M-Missiles, etc.) and the second digit would give the number of missiles to fire, using the same numbering scheme as WOK5 attacks (1 to 9, X = 10, F = 15, etc.). The manager software would simply have to see if the first digit of that last parameter was a number ... if so, use the standard random missile routine ... if it's a letter, use the directed missile routine.

That's also interesting. That would defenitely increase the value of MIS. On the other hand figuring out the probabilities for hitting each type of target might be a pain in the neck. Oh and one more thing - I hope you mixed up EFF with TECH in your exapmle, because I'd be totally against allowing to target EFF. That would make MIS too powerful.

I'd also be fine with some sort of Army retreat or WOK5-style "send all but 1" type attack orders. And maybe build-up-to TECH levels (instead of the up-and-down tech points) and something akin to spy codes ... although I could take or leave these last two.

I don't really like the idea of putting an economic/production/feeding component into WOK4 ... keep it simple, says I, with just a few tweaks to make things more player-controlled.

Agree, let's keep it a tactical game and leave economy handling to WOK 5.

trewqh

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:14 pm

ARGH! So much possibilities and so little time to write them all down!

For now i'll just say...Rune/Chris you've guys just entered the portal to imortality as far as i'm concerned...finally improvements to wok 4!

*Blinks away some tears* i thought i'd never see the day...

KUDOS!

Mullog · Post by **Mullog** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:36 pm

Thanks for the comments!

I think we should let the game rules stay excactly as they are now, but add optional rules that the GM can choose to use. That way we get the best from both worlds; the simplicity and sturdyness of the good old WOK4, and more benefits from a rewrite.

Most (if not all) the suggestions you have made so far should be relatively easy to do once we have completed the engine with the "classic" rules in place.

I don't think we should try to get rid of the GM, for that is part of what makes WOK special. But I think we should consider the option of an auto-GM that would run turns at a specific interval. With an auto-GM we would always have open games and missing GM's would not be such a big problem anymore. The GM could even go on vacation without stopping the game!

Someone will probably ask when WOK4 online is ready to play with, but that I don't know. One day, hopefully!

GoatHerder · Post by **GoatHerder** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:47 pm

Hello all,
I reckon it's a great idea to automate the order processing. Someone could just start a game and let it run, with little or no involvement from anyone.

I'm not sure about the need to introduce any of the other changes, with the possible exception of long range missiles (I like that idea). Too many changes will bring it closer to WOK5 - and so the separation between the 2 games will become blurred. WOK4 is a straighforward game, easy to learn and simple to play, and I think that is it's attraction. If we make it more like WOK5, it doesn't necessarily mean that we will more people will play WOK, perhaps the reverse.

One suggestion that may add a bit of spice to the game page, esp. if it is automated ---- is a propaganda page. Essentially, it would allow players to write any comments they wish on the game page, either attributed to them or anonymous (could be with their turns, or perhaps anytime between turns).

At the moment, I have nearly left WOK. I have been struggling for enthusiasm with the game in recent times, but intend to play maybe once every 6 months or so. I'm sure others have felt the same way from time-to-time. Anything to liven up the game is heartily welcomed - and I'll be back with a vengeance. I think automated turns is one of those---would make it so much easier.

Lowebb · Post by **Lowebb** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:05 am

I like the idea of GMless game, or as near as can be. For it to be feasible I see the engine as having to be an online version over which the 'player' running the game will have to stand accountable for why he had a rerun as this would be recorded in some log over which he had no control. This way there would be more games available all the time. Orders instead of sent to a GM are sent in similarly to WOKSP and can be edited up until the time of the turn

Post by **gm_al** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:41 am

*smiles*

Time to speak up I guess.

WOK4+ (or whatever it will be called) is a logical next step. Now that we have an online game like WOK SP and see that if works there is no stopping us from re-releasing the old "classic".

The benefits can be numerous, but be careful not to change too much of the game mechanics - as mentionned, WOK4 has always been the quick step into wokking, with easy rules and easy gameplay. Introducing an economy or spells would ruin that.

The real benefits will probably come from the user interface and game handling side, and it will allow us to run way more games (leagues ? etc.) then we have now. Auto-GMed games can be training ground for the real challenges too.

Let me just give my 2 cents about the other suggested changes:
* new long-range missiles: great idea, and shouldnt be too hard to code. Of course the old long-range had its appeal by simply being "different", but I agree that the new suggestion is more challenging.
* directed missiles: as far as I remember we actually had that at one time in WOK4, and reverted it back to "random" kills (mainly to keep things easy if my memory doesnt fail me). Could be changed, but I dont see the absolute necessity in doing it.
* army retreat option: easy addition, and could help a lot. WOK5 has proven that players like to use this option.

Id also like to see something tweaked regarding spying/sabotage to make it being used more often. But we talk about that when we get there....

Let me also add that we look to install a system that will allow chosen members of the community to post news and weekly columns right on the (newly designed) WOK4 main page. All this tied together in the new K2 *looks over to Rune* Should make the WOK site much more lively.

Keep smiling, good times are ahead.

Polymorphic · Post by **Polymorphic** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:35 pm

Mullog wrote:I think we should let the game rules stay excactly as they are now, but add optional rules that the GM can choose to use. That way we get the best from both worlds; the simplicity and sturdyness of the good old WOK4, and more benefits from a rewrite.
Most (if not all) the suggestions you have made so far should be relatively easy to do once we have completed the engine with the "classic" rules in place.

I like WOK4 as it is, but adding optional extras can't hurt for you guys who want something more...

I don't think we should try to get rid of the GM, for that is part of what makes WOK special. But I think we should consider the option of an auto-GM that would run turns at a specific interval. With an auto-GM we would always have open games and missing GM's would not be such a big problem anymore. The GM could even go on vacation without stopping the game!

Someone will probably ask when WOK4 online is ready to play with, but that I don't know. One day, hopefully!

Please, PLEASE rewrite it in something nicer than VB...
*begging on knees icon*
If you could 'translate' it to, say, C++ I'll be able to compile it and run it under linux (yeah, my fault for not using Windows, blah, blah, I'll argue about that later...) - then once I'd written a short shell script and added it as a cronjob I'll be able to have automatic turn-running

Of course, having a GM there to see that it doesn't screw up will still be a requirement - I don't trust computers that much...

Besides, I'm sure I came up with the idea of an auto-Gm

Post by **Egbert** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:57 pm

Polymorphic wrote:If you could 'translate' it to, say, C++ I'll be able to compile it and run it under linux (yeah, my fault for not using Windows, blah, blah, I'll argue about that later...) - then once I'd written a short shell script and added it as a cronjob I'll be able to have automatic turn-running

Al, you need to fix the English translation device on this messageboard. We're getting things in Greek again.

Post by **ThinKing** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:45 pm

Polymorphic wrote:Besides, I'm sure I came up with the idea of an auto-Gm

That is a VERY old idea!!

Post by **Donut** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:27 am

Ahhh c'mon!!! I'm as close to automatic as anyone needs... Oh ****, I gotta run a turn.

GM 'Automatica'

Mullog · Post by **Mullog** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:56 am

Egbert wrote:
Polymorphic wrote:If you could 'translate' it to, say, C++ I'll be able to compile it and run it under linux (yeah, my fault for not using Windows, blah, blah, I'll argue about that later...) - then once I'd written a short shell script and added it as a cronjob I'll be able to have automatic turn-running
Al, you need to fix the English translation device on this messageboard. We're getting things in Greek again.

Haha! Some times the translation fails... I will try to do it manually:

Polymorphic said:

Polymorphic wrote:If you could 'translate' it to, say, C++ I'll be able to compile it and run it under linux

This means: If you could rewrite the program (WOK4 manager) in another programming language (C++ is one) I will be able to run it in linux (linux is a free alternative to windows).

Explanation: The old WOK4 manager was written in an ancient programming language called QBasic (

you had to carve in on a stone tablet and drop in onto your computer). C++ is a somewhat more modern (although its still ancient) programming language that is very widely used. Think of it as rewriting the WOK manual from urdu to english. Poly is a real nerd and has installed Linux (http://www.linux.org/) instead of Windows in his computer. Linux is free software and can be copied and installed by anyone anywhere without paying anything! That is why nerds like it. Using an old program like the WOK4 manager under linux is difficult since WOK4 was not written for it.

Poly then wrote:

Polymorphic wrote:then once I'd written a short shell script and added it as a cronjob I'll be able to have automatic turn-running

Translation: then once I have written my own program that runs the WOK4 manager and set it up so that it is run automatically, I'll be able to have automatic turn-running

Explanation: Poly did not bother reading all the posts so he did not notice that this is part of the reason we want to rewrite WOK4. He wants to setup his own computer to run turns automatically, while we want to do that job for you so that even the technofobes out there can run games.

Now for my reply to Poly...

The Worlds of Kaomaris

Rewriting WOK4

Rewriting WOK4

Re: Rewriting WOK4

Re: Rewriting WOK4