Dis-information (the thread you all expected to come up)

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Dis-information (the thread you all expected to come up)

Post by gm_al » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:09 am

You gotta be careful these days to identify all the propaganda the governments come up with.

Sitting in front of a TV and watching the news, I begin to doubt whatever headline I see. It works out most of the time.

Iraqi Vice shot while trying to flee the country ? Humm....

Here is a real good site you should check out for unfiltered information:

http://www.disinfopedia.org/

Click a few links and take a good read.
For an outsider and regular US visitor like me it gets a bit frightening to see how close Bush has been pushing the US towards Orwell's visions. His view of the world may be all black-and-white, good-and-bad, live-or-die. Im not sharing this.

I do believe war is sometimes the only way to clear a critical situation, but how critical is Iraq ? If the US wants to 'democratize' the region, why not start with their allies (Qatar, Saudi-Arabia etc.) ?

In the end its all for geopolitical reasons, and because Iraq is weak enough to be overrun (North Korea has a million soldiers, and possible 2 nuclear weapons) - and to mask Bush's inaptitude to deal with homemade problems. Invest in the social system ? medical care ? No, lets do tax cuts for the upper class (that paid for his election) and keep the population in fear (USA vs rest of the world) - 'Bowling for Columbine' is really a great movie....

And just like his daddy used to forget: 'Its the economy, stupid !'

:roll:

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Post by Saladin » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:35 pm

Well put Al and i'd like to stress again...everybody go watch:

Bowling for Columbine!
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Post by Ecrivian » Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:11 pm

Saladin wrote:Well put Al and i'd like to stress again...everybody go watch:

Bowling for Columbine!

I haven't seen the movie, however I can only assume that its about the Columbine shootings a few years back, yes no? Three questions/points I have about this are:

1) Where the hell were the parents? Honestly, if you were making a sawed off shotgun in your garage how can your parents not think suspiciously of you. Also if you're making a bomb out of propane tanks similar questions are raised, or should be raised.

2) The media, what can I say except for are you people really idiots? The media gave this event over exposure which in turn "inspired" other depressed and angry teenagers to spawn "copycat" events that didn't do anyone any good.

3) Back from class... but anyways. Granted just parents shouldn't be to blame but they're certainly number one on my list as they have the most interaction with these people. Now the other people that have just about as much interaction with the kids that created this terrible event at Columbine, yes that's right I'm going to attack school officials, not just teachers but everyone at that school, teachers especially! Teachers see what these kids write, how they behave, how they interact, and don't tell me they've never heard gossip and such. They should've known and done something about it if they really cared. But, nothing was done, and then everyone came back to saying "oh we should do something to prevent this further," Enter the "ZERO TOLERANCE" policy! Zero Tolerance, there have been some seriously stupid things done on behalf of ZERO TOLERANCE, one example I'd like to site is: a elementary school student was suspended indefinately in either Kentucky or Kansas, one of the two for offering another student a cough drop and telling that other student "it will make you feel better." Now this is an example of ZERO Intelligence acting on behalf of ZERO Tolerance, there have also been examples of benefits of ZERO Tolerance, there have been teenagers removed from my high school because it was found that they had a knife at school, upon a search of their locker, a knife was found and they were removed from the premesis and action was taken with the police and such. (Note to Mason, TBert, Smashface, Funtastick, Butcher, Last Paladin, and anyone else who's attended or currently attending East High School: This happened at Roosevelt Middle School NOT EAST HIGH SCHOOL)

Ecrivian
Last edited by Ecrivian on Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mylantis » Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:53 pm

I wonder if all you people that bash Bush for attacking Iraq would feel that same if you lived there under that guys rule......I think we should have killed him off 12 years ago and saved our selves the hassle of having to do it now. but you guys, France and Germany are right, maybe we should have waited until he attacked us with Cem. or Bio. weapons....where casualties would be inocent people......I'm sure there will be inocent lives lost in this war, but I garentee that the U.S. is a LOT more careful about it than Iraq would be..............
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Post by Strider » Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:26 pm

I'm not a big fan of the way G. Dubya has gone about diplomatically preparing for this war. The whole "us or them" diplomatic stance is stupid at the very least, or dangerous at worst. Our allies may not agree with all of our actions, just as we may not agree with all of theirs, but there are still our friends. The total disregard for treaties and the like by this administration has set a bad precedent.

But, that being said, I still think this war had to happen. I was in Nairobi the day the embassy got bombed there in 1998. A few people that I used to barbecue with and hang out with at embassy functions died that day. The worst part is that Al Qaeda killed hundreds of Kenyans just to kill a few people who happened to be Americans, Americans who had very little to do with the things that Osama and his gang were angry about. That fact continues to frighten and piss me off to this very day. And I have no qualms about seeing those sort of people meet an early grave. Because people who do those sort of things will continue to do so until they're stopped. Some of the same people planned the deaths of my friends killed people again in New York in 2001.

People, who I trust, tell me that Saddam's regime were willing to sell weapons of mass destruction to terrorists. I can't tell you for sure if that's true, as no one really can except those who are in Saddam's inner circle or have top secret clearance. I see no reason for these people to lie to me though, I've known them for a long time and they are in the business of knowing things like this. That's the problem with this war, we'll never know the real truth until after it's over. I guess only time will tell.

But, if Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda, he had to go down by any means necessary. Because those people will do anything to kill Americans. Trust me, I've seen it with my own eyes.
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Post by Saladin » Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:30 pm

Ecrivian wrote:
Saladin wrote:Well put Al and i'd like to stress again...everybody go watch:

Bowling for Columbine!

I haven't seen the movie, however I can only assume that its about the Columbine shootings a few years back, yes no? Three questions/points I have about this are:
Hmm...no not really it only has a sideways connection with Columbine. I would say the general theme in this movie is FEAR. :)
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Post by Egbert » Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:39 pm

People forget that in the 90's, the U.N. sent inspectors into Iraq to look for weapons of mass destruction. Saddam said he didn't have any, and the inspectors didn't find any. However, during the inspection, one of Saddam's chief aides (I believe it was his son-in-law) defected, and told the inspectors that Saddam was hiding a lot of stuff, and gave the inspectors a location to look in. The inspectors went there, and they found Russian-made machinery in a factory, whose sole purpose was the manufacture of biological weapons. The inspectors had everything buried, and then they blew the place up. Saddam got pissed, blocked further inspections, and that was the end of it. Bill Clinton gave some speech that Saddam shouldn't block further inspections, and it was ignored.

Now he says he doesn't have them (again). :roll: Why would we want to leave someone alone that only a few years ago had a factory that was making biological weapons? What do you think he was going to do with those weapons? Look at them? Or use them?

To me, it doesn't matter if there's a connection to Al Quaeda or not --- use whatever excuse you want to get rid of him, but do it.
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Post by SmashFace » Thu Mar 20, 2003 9:11 pm

Wow, sorry to hear that Strider, and I agree totally with you Egbert, Although i hate the prospect of war, i beleive it the the only solution to the problem of Saddam Hussein. He is a liar, and excellent at deception. The longer you let him sit, the more he will build up his forces and he has no hesitations of using them. other countires are not hated in the way the US is by the middle east, so they dont' realize the gravity of the situation when people like him get their hands on weapons of mass destruction. We cannot let saddam sit, it is the worst possible solution.

Dom
PS. today from a UN source, ( not a US source) it has been CONFIRMED that Saddam has killed 1.4 million civilians
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Post by Goat Herder » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:24 pm

Egbert wrote:To me, it doesn't matter if there's a connection to Al Quaeda or not --- use whatever excuse you want to get rid of him, but do it.
Exactly right. His links have just the same effect - Palestine, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco? Malaysia?

Sooner or later there will be a call to lift the sanctions against Iraq, so they can import & export whatever they like. Obviously if they don't have WMD and we can trust them not to obtain them, then we can all be happy. Perhaps that trust could have been obtained without this war. Maybe we could wait 20-30 years until he carks it and one of his sons takes over. We could all feel much more comfortable then. Small matter that the US and other countries are spending billions every year just to maintain the current sanctions. It'd be better to spend a billion a year to ....(insert desired objective here)
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Post by Saladin » Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:56 pm

I find it quite funny that somehow countries that do not have the US' backing should 100% not be allowed to have any weapons of mass destruction, but other countries known for their terroristic acts that are being backed by the US simply get more and more weapons of mass destruction from the US. Heck even Iraq got their weapons of mass destruction from the US, when the US still felt that they were in their camp.

The only country in the world crazy enough to actually use weapons of mass destruction is the US...i think most people would agree that it's the US that should disarm.

Another thing that's quite funny is that somehow Bush can't find a way to find some more money for education, medi-care and such but can find 1.900 BILLION dollars to fund this war.

Also since when it is ok to attack a country because you suspect that somewhere in the far future they might attack somebody. Or worse they might work together with somebody that could attack you. Even the FBI and the CIA constantly say that there's no direct link between Al-Quaida and Iraq but somehow you people still believe Bush' lies.

So it's ok for the US to kill thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqi's citizens, but it's not ok for Al-quaida to kill three thousand innocent American citizens? Bit of a double standard isn't it.

My wish for this year...that somebody will please remove Bush and his henchmen from power, any way possible.
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Post by gm_al » Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:06 pm

Its not a question about Saddam. He is a dictator and has to be treated accordingly. Of course does this justify a $100 Billion operation ? Every cruise missiles costs $600. 000, so some of Bushs close friends will make a fortune out of this.
Im not questionning the fact that a dictator, especially in the middle east, has to be dealt with. Im questionning how this happens. Im pretty sure a much smaller sum invested into CIA and Delta forces (and maybe the Mossad) that hunt him down would have done the job - a job well missed 12 years ago btw. Add the kurdes and help the inner opposition (remember the northern alliance in Afghanistan ?) and Saddam would be wiped away mostly from his own people, without endangering the whole middle east.

And the US has a long history in making/helping dictators and their regimes (Pinochet etc.) as long as they promised to stop communism. 'We make them - we break them' ??

Bush's mistake is that he 'burns a lot of bridges' (as a close friend of us would say) - the UN is left without power, next time the chinese might just invade Taiwan (just an example) and forget about the UN. Its a theatre of the nations now.

And lets try to remember:
1> Bush breaks the Kyoto pact about pollution (the US consumes 25% of all the world energy)
2> In exchange oil drilling will be allowed in Alaska
3> Bush breaks the missile treaty to allow the production of Reagans 'Star Wars' shield (billions down the drain)
4> Bush overrules the UN and breaks the public international law

There were other treaties I cant exactly remember (a GATT economic treaty for example) whre he also destroyed what previous governments had carefully built.

I think it was X-wing who called him a 'puppet' on these boards a while ago - quite right. What Im really affraid of is that the puppet is leading us directly to a religious war, and I believe he finds his justifications in his personal, heavily religious background. 'No muslims - no terrorism' ?

And a last word on El Kaida and Saddam: Osama called Saddam an 'infidel', and for good reason. Before Saddam wrote a copy of the coran with his own blood (Im not making this up, he gave 24 liters of his blood over several years) he tried hard to get rid of the mullahs and establish a Saddam-esque religion. Just like Kim Yong Il in North Korea btw: in EVERY public building there you will find a shrine of the 'great leaders' and people are asked to pray to them.

Its a crazy world.

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Post by Saladin » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:22 am

Best thing would be for the US citizens to try and behave like they have half a brain and vote the guy out.

But any other means that gets the same result will be fine with me.
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Post by Saladin » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:01 am

Baron Roland wrote:
Saladin wrote:Best thing would be for the US citizens to try and behave like they have half a brain and vote the guy out.

But any other means that gets the same result will be fine with me.
I see, but the next election isn't for another year or so. Not much anyone can do about it that way.

So, would a single bullet be a suitable solution, or would you prefer a low-yield nuclear weapon taking out the center of Washington, D.C. :?:
I was thinking something more suitable to dear George...he slips in the bad tub and cracks his skull open. :twisted:

And it would be double cool if the same thing happens to Saddam.
Just suppose for a moment that it was found out that the government of The Netherlands was developing nuclear weapons, or bioweapons, or whatever other nastiness the world has invented in the last century. What would be your reaction? Surely you would wonder what is the purpose of The Netherlands spending money to develop such weapons, how do they contribute to the national security of The Netherlands?
Absolutely, as citizen of the Netherlands i would find it ridiculous that my country spends ANY money on having an army.
What good are they to Iraq?
Personally i don't think nukes are good for anybody. But i can understand Iraq and other countries in the Middle East wanting nukes if only to get back the fragile balance in the Middle East. Right now only Israel has nukes and they are definitely willing to use them should it be necessary. So i can understand that countries surrounding Israel would like to be able to counter any nuclear threat by having nukes of their own.
Yes, it is true that the United States did develop these weapons. They were developed during WWII, and nobody had any idea of the power of the weapons they were developing. That is regrettable, but it is what we have to live with. What everyone is missing here is the difference between a "responsible government" having these weapons and one that is far less than responsible having these weapons. I have never heard anyone who was afraid of the United States having these weapons,
That shows you're general lack of knowledge of how people view the US, most of the people i know are terrified of the US and what they will do, most people wouldn't put it past Bush to fire off a bunch of nukes and start a world war should Saddam actually be able to nuke the US. I definitely fear the US and many with me. but lots of countries have to be concerned about Iraq and others having these weapons.
You may think that this attack on Iraq makes President Bush no different than Saddam Hussein, but look past your emotional reaction of the moment, look at the history. There is a big difference between a country like the United States having these weapons and a country like Iraq having these weapons. Do I think the United States should have these weapons?
NO! If the world ends in a WWIII it will be the US who will have started it.

Best thing would be if no country in the world had nukes and the world was slowly working towards that until the US decided to back out of the nuclear disarmament program.

Even during the Cuban missile crisis it was the US who was willing to start a nuclear war, were it not for the calm demeanor and intelligence of McBundy and of Khrushchev the US would already have started a nuclear war. BTW it's asstounding to see so much biased disinformation about the Cuban Missile Crisis, very sad indeed.

For some reason most Americans always seem to think their country is the epitomy of good, where as it's policies and actions most of the time show exactly the opposite.
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Post by Saladin » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:15 am

Baron Roland wrote:Ok, but after I heard that, I thought about some history; this is nothing really new, it is not something the United States invented, and is certainly is not a new precedent. In the summer of 1944, would the allies have accepted any peace with Germany that left Adolf Hitler and the NAZI party in power? How about 1943. Would the allies have accepted any peace in the Pacific in 1942 that left the current regime in power in Japan? No, regime change in the Axis Powers was part and parcel to any peace or cessation of hostilities.
Iraq hasn't attacked anyone!!!

Other than not disarm as was demanded by the UN Iraq have actually done nothing wrong. Why isn't Israel being attacked? They have broken a ton of UN resolutions have next to the US and Russia the most chemical and nuclear weapons and on top of that they are occupying a country and slowly committing a genocide there. Oh sorry i forgot...Israel owns the US.

Have a look at:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Se ... usint.html

BTW the US has already proven that they don't care about democratically elected leaders, remember what they did to Allende in Chili?!?!

Should i continue with giving example of how the US sponsors terrorism (still doing it today), how they assasinate leaders of other democratic countries because they don't follow the American line? How they have and are electronically bugging all their allies at the UN? How US companies backed by the US government have sold millions worth of weapons to Iraq in the last 3 months?
I am sure there are countless other examples in history, this is nothing new, what is new and disturbing to people around the world is that the United States is doing it, and doing it almost alone. The question is how many times does the world have to see this happen, how many times do we have to go fix the problem when the world is on the brink of disaster, instead of acting to prevent it.
The world wasn't on the brink of disaster untill the US put it there. I dare you to tell me that you felt your life was in total danger and the whole free world was in danger and that this danger was Saddam before Bush began his hate campaign, his CRUSADE?!?!
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Post by Strider » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:40 am

Are you going to take a few actions of a government to define the nation as a whole, Saladin? That's ridiculous.

If you dig deep enough, I'm sure you could find examples for every country that exists or ever existed to show that they oppressed a people, committed atrocities etc. The U.S. is no different in that regard. But, if you take the actions of a nation on the whole, the U.S. has done far more than most countries combined to help (that's right, I said help) people outside of their borders. More aid comes from the U.S. that most any country. The U.S. has helped rebuild countries after wars more than any other, even countries which were our enemies. If you want to dig up examples from history for the U.S., at least be even-handed.

Forgive me for being pretentious, but it seems that you see the world in a lot of black-white combinations. The world is far too complicated for that poop, whether it be yours or G.Dubya's. Most nations don't act on issues based on a single reason, there are often several, some good and some bad. I'm sure there are some greedy reasons for this war occurring, but there are some good ones as well. And the good outweighs the bad in this case, in my opinion.

I guess I see the world in grays.
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