Dis-information (the thread you all expected to come up)

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Post by SmashFace » Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:17 am

Saladin wrote: So it's ok for the US to kill thousands and thousands of innocent Iraqi's citizens, but it's not ok for Al-quaida to kill three thousand innocent American citizens? Bit of a double standard isn't it.
:roll:

hmm good call.. WAIT NO!!!!!!!! read
PS. today from a UN source, ( not a US source) it has been CONFIRMED that Saddam has killed 1.4 million civilians
hmm yeah so you honestly think the US will kill 1.4million+ civilians. if you want to base this one a life scale WE are the ones saving lives. the US is taking EVERY precaution to reduce civilian casualities. Saddam on the other hand is doing everything he can to INCREASE them. he is willing to people AA guns on hospitals.. but OBVIOUSLY the US are the bad guys.. think about it.. .your arguments make NO sense
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Post by Calidus » Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:11 am

Absolutely, as citizen of the Netherlands i would find it ridiculous that my country spends ANY money on having an army.
I would be more concerned about my government if it DIDN'T sustain a military force to protect itself.

Personally i don't think nukes are good for anybody. But i can understand Iraq and other countries in the Middle East wanting nukes if only to get back the fragile balance in the Middle East. Right now only Israel has nukes and they are definitely willing to use them should it be necessary. So i can understand that countries surrounding Israel would like to be able to counter any nuclear threat by having nukes of their own.
Actually, both Pakistan and India also currently have nuclear capabilities. Nuclear capabilities are not the only weapons of mass destruction that we are concerned about, however. Sal, have you EVER seen the effects of sarin, or nerve agents, or even mustard gas? I think you would seriously change your position had you ever seen the effects that these types of weapons have on a person. Not Muslims and Christians, not Americans or Europeans or Iraqi. PEOPLE. If Saddam will willingly use these agents against his own people, do you really think that only the US is at risk?

That shows you're general lack of knowledge of how people view the US, most of the people i know are terrified of the US and what they will do, most people wouldn't put it past Bush to fire off a bunch of nukes and start a world war should Saddam actually be able to nuke the US. I definitely fear the US and many with me. but lots of countries have to be concerned about Iraq and others having these weapons.
Leave the sleeping dog lie, and you won't get bitten. Its just that simple. If another country takes it upon itself to attack the US with a nuclear device, then the US has every right to defend itself, by any means necessary. We didn't get our freedoms by backing down from what needed to be done, contrary to popular (and not so popular) opinion.

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Post by SmashFace » Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:31 am

Update: Iraqis have fired SCUD missiles at US forces. Now wasn't it 2 weeks ago they said they dind't ahve any SCUD missiles??? hmm.. [Sarcasm] i can OBVIOUSLY see the point about trusting saddam to sit and mind his own business[/Sarcasm] Seriously people, this guy CAN NOT stay in power.
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Post by Mylantis » Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:51 am

Saladin, you seem to know alot about the U.S. I wish I could say the same about the Neatherlands.....whats the guy's name that runs your goverment? who knows/cares? I guess you have to take a stand on isues before people notice you even exist.............Americans may not always do the right thing but at least we're doing something............
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Post by Ecrivian » Fri Mar 21, 2003 7:37 am

Strider wrote:Are you going to take a few actions of a government to define the nation as a whole, Saladin? That's ridiculous.

If you dig deep enough, I'm sure you could find examples for every country that exists or ever existed to show that they oppressed a people, committed atrocities etc. The U.S. is no different in that regard. But, if you take the actions of a nation on the whole, the U.S. has done far more than most countries combined to help (that's right, I said help) people outside of their borders. More aid comes from the U.S. that most any country. The U.S. has helped rebuild countries after wars more than any other, even countries which were our enemies. If you want to dig up examples from history for the U.S., at least be even-handed.

Forgive me for being pretentious, but it seems that you see the world in a lot of black-white combinations. The world is far too complicated for that poop, whether it be yours or G.Dubya's. Most nations don't act on issues based on a single reason, there are often several, some good and some bad. I'm sure there are some greedy reasons for this war occurring, but there are some good ones as well. And the good outweighs the bad in this case, in my opinion.

I guess I see the world in grays.
Uh Strider, ditto. One of the biggest things that the US did to help other countries that I can think of.... hmm... and they'd be mostly European Countries that benefited from this thing the US did, it was called the Marshall Plan. Where the US gave money to European countries after WWII and helped rebuild the economies of those countries including W. Germany and even helped out E. Germany. Oh yeah, not to mention what we've done for the former Republics of the USSR, Japan, and China. Hmm... I guess those don't count and we're the bad guys cuz we're not only trying to help ourselves here but also everyone else. Gee I wonder how you Europeans would feel about Sadaam having his weapons of mass destruction if I dunno, he dropped one of his arsenic bombs in your water supplies or maybe had one of his agents bomb one of your embassies or other government buildings.
Saladin, you say that a few thousand Americans dying is bad? I think a few thousand of any peoples dying is bad. Wouldn't you agree here? And this war, whilst I'm still opposed to it overall is working towards preventing a few millions of any peoples dying. I don't care who has nukes, I agree with Roland, when he says its permissable for the US to have nukes and other weapons because we're responsible, the same with the Isralies. You know, you sound like my roommate, never have I ever met such an Anti-sematic person in all my life, you two should shack up so you can cry about how the Isralies/Jews run America (and smoke some pot, cuz he does a lot of that)

Ecrivian, disgusted that its finally gotten to war but darnit, its time someone did something about it, we should've done something 12 years ago when we had the perfect opportunity.
War determines not who is right, but who is left. We shall see in the days ahead whom of you appear atop the pile of corpses.

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Post by gm_al » Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:10 am

Geeeezz.... how often need I tell you that this is NOT about getting rid of Saddam ! Didnt you all read my posts ? Its HOW it is done that makes me sick.
Anyone in here will try to make his country 'look good', and Im not questioning that. Im questioning the whole US policy on how they deal with 'problems' or the 'axis of evil' (it was originally called 'axis of hate', but then, to refer to a Reagan speech, changed to 'axis of evil'. It also originally only had Iran and Iraq on the list, but then they realised it might look too much like a crusade against muslims so they added North Korea)

The US has a very violent history, never missing an occasion to raise arms or get into a conflict. That made them the world leader and the #1 world power - but it all comes at a price. (again, watch 'Bowling for Columbine'!)

A few more historic tidbits, unfiltered:
- the Marshal plan was mainly aimed at helping US companies to establish market leadership in a rebuilt and rising Europe. Sure it helped the local population, but the main goal was to get US companies into the market.
- US presidents in the army: great leader Bush ? Hmmm.... he and Rumsfeld got enough cash and power (Daddy again) to avoid their duties in Vietnam, no ? maybe they try to compensate something lately ? 'fighting the war we never had' ?

I will keep telling you

'IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID !'

because that is what its all about. Beating down Iraq two times bears more profit then doing it just once. Do you really think those politicans care about the bodycount ? If this war would really be about terrorism, I would be more scared that radical muslims overthrow the Egypt or Saudi-Arabian governments. (Btw the US Iran policy is totally wrong - the mullahs there are under heavy pressure from a very well-educated youth that is tired of all the limitations and looks to get back to a western lifestyle - and then Bush condamns the whole nation as evil....)

This is an enormous powder keg, ready to explode. If you believe this war will stop or hinder terrorists in killing US citizens you are in for a bad surprise. Only more blood will be shed.

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Post by SmashFace » Fri Mar 21, 2003 2:08 pm

gm_al wrote:
The US has a very violent history, never missing an occasion to raise arms or get into a conflict. That made them the world leader and the #1 world power - but it all comes at a price. (again, watch 'Bowling for Columbine'!)
Not a history major are we?

alright, look back in history.. we never missed a chance to join in a war... ok first we'll take a look at WWI we would have NEVER joined that war had we not been provoked many times by Germany.
here are the reasons that the us joined the war.
#1 sinking of the Lucitania
#2 Germany sent US a note saying it will destroy all US ships going to New York
#3 the zimmerman note, that is a note that germany sent to mexico saying that mexico should attack the US and if they do, germany will give them Arizona New Mexico and Texas once Germany defeats the US. (this is the major reason)
#4 unrestricted submarine warfare.

Also take into account that the war started in august 1914. we joined the war in 1917. OBVIOUSLY we jumped at the chance to fight :roll:


ok WWII
here we also planned on not fighting in the war. and we stayed out of it until we were attacked at Pearl Harbor.


OK, you wanna look at a violent history. you may want to look somewhere else, we would have NEVER entered either world war had we been massively provoked.
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Post by Undertaker » Sat Mar 22, 2003 6:40 am

"That's a good question. Let me see...In my case, you know, I hate to advocate drugs or liquor, violence, insanity to anyone. But in my case it's worked." Hunter S. Thompson

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Post by gm_al » Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:53 am

I have no idea how you can compare RL events to the WOK structure and community. Why are you trying to tie these things together ?

True my views outside WOK are quite cynical, guess that is my way to deal with RL. But this has nothing to do with WOK. WOK has come a long way from a small idea to a self-ruling grown community. My motivations behind WOK were never, not in the slightest, extrinsic (you get money or a reward for doing it) but my joy to share games and build something.

Im oftern called 'incubator' by my friends, because that is what my life is mostly about. I create and initiate, and once the whole thing runs on its own I lean back and Im happy. This way I created one of Europes largest tabletop league (they run over 150 tourneys per year) and thats also how WOK shaped up over the years. But alll this is clearly separated from my RL views and acts. I dont mix those.

I might be simplifying things, but Im not at all biased against US in any sense. Its a great country with opportunities for talented people, something we here in Europe tend to lack in favor of social security and safety. But then its your head of government that defines its world policy, and I cant really share these views.

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Post by gm_al » Sat Mar 22, 2003 4:45 pm

I cant follow your reasonings. And Im not really painting the world in black & white, I never declared the US to be the 'evil', or the axis of evil.... and I still fail to see any connection to WOK and what we enjoy PLAYING here.

But never mind. You seem to be be very convinced that all you say and think is right, and Im not here to change your mind. And I will draw my conclusions from all I see and here, may you like it or not.

And I wasnt even talking about the Cuban Crisis, not a single word. Dont know where you picked that up, not from me, so stop telling me Im 'completely biased' on this episode. My view is that the world was on the brink of WW3 and only the wise and cool handling by a careful president (something the US could need these days) stopped the disaster.

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Post by Undertaker » Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:33 pm

"That's a good question. Let me see...In my case, you know, I hate to advocate drugs or liquor, violence, insanity to anyone. But in my case it's worked." Hunter S. Thompson

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Post by Strider » Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:38 pm

That was a great article (I havent read the second one yet), UT. I don't agree with it 100% but he brings up great points. My biggest beef with the administartion on this whole war all along is not the fact that we are fighting it, but how they have presented it to the world. Their diplomatic skills are atrocious (insert Texan joke here).

Everyone who hasn't read the article yet: READ IT!
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Post by TBert » Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:29 am

Well, the good thing I can say about this big debate is that people have concentrated on Bush and not on the military. I have a nasty story about a friend of mine getting spat on and jeered at at an anti-war march, just because he was in the Army, that makes me homicidal every time I think about it.

Being in the military, I have to take alot of stuff on blind faith, to believe that I have a reason to be fighting. I fully believe in this war, not just blind faith, and the reasons for it. I'm not educated all that much on the past (I'm only 18 ), but I (have to) believe that the government does what it thinks is the right thing, and everybody makes mistakes.

When the people that are fighting the war don't believe in the war, we have soldiers killed by their comrades, like what happened at the 101st Airborne recently. I have nothing against that particular soldier hating the war, but he should not have joined the Army if he wasn't prepared to follow orders and believe in the cause, at least enough not to kill other Americans.
Last edited by TBert on Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Undertaker » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:20 am

the "Other War" :( :cry:

you need real player to view

http://www.pot-tv.net/ram/pottvshowse1448.ram
"That's a good question. Let me see...In my case, you know, I hate to advocate drugs or liquor, violence, insanity to anyone. But in my case it's worked." Hunter S. Thompson

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Post by TBert » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:30 am

I thought about it for a bit, and decided that my friend's story is worth telling.

He's going to West Point next year, so for a 4-day weekend a few months back he was allowed to go back to his hometown NYC to visit West Point. The airline lost his baggage, so he had to walk through town in his Class A's. To get home he had to walk past a massive anti-war protest that was going on. They started out sarcastically applauding him and thanking him for protecting the country, then started jeering and yelling insults, then ended up spitting on him. And he just walked right past. My respect for him quadrupled because I would have lost it, hit somebody, and there would have been a dead soldier in the news the next day.

But it made sense after he explained that we are the ones fighting for and defending their right to do stupid poop like that. I find it tragically ironic that those idiots were spitting on the very thing that allowed them to be that disrespectful, but I suppose it's another extension of freedom. Not right, but it still may be legal.

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Post by Duke » Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:21 am

First of all: TBERT!!!!

With that off my chest I guess I should dive into this head first.

The worlds general view of Americans is that they think they are right and everyone who disagrees are wrong, all the time.

We all know that this isnt the case but I have to tell you this Baron, you are heading in that direction.

We are all agreeing on the fact that Saddam must go but only a small fraction thinks that this is the right way to do it. I firmly belive that there was no other outcome here than to use some sort of force. I am guessing that the suggestion with taking him out with Delta groups or Mossad is not possible since it isnt "legal" to assassin leaders of other countries unless you are in the state of war with them. Otherwise that would probably been preferred if it was possible.

Still, two nations no matter who they are, can not go against the UN like US and GB did. But it is not all their fault. At some points I felt that France, Germany and Russia placed more effort into stopping the US from attacking then they did on putting pressure on Iraq. All they did was sending an old, blind as a bat, Swede down there and naturally he found nothing wrong. You could have placed him inside Hitlers bunker and he would have reported that "there is nothing here but civilians and ordinary buildings".

If the other strong (by military standards) counries would have put some pressure on Iraq then the Arab community would probably have joined in after a while. I am talking about China, Russia, India, France, Germany, Brazil. What did they do? Close to nothing if you asked me. Yes, they sent some papers over along with that blind Swede but they could have done a lot more. They cant just sit around telling everybody what they shouldnt do. They should have done something themselves. The whole Arab community are normally having the opposite opinion of America, sometimes probably only in spite. If countries like China would have reacted in a more powerful way then countries like Saudi-Arabia may have started to think that "hey, are they thinking the same way on this? Maybe we should do something?"
Saladin, you seem to know alot about the U.S. I wish I could say the same about the Neatherlands.....whats the guy's name that runs your goverment? who knows/cares? I guess you have to take a stand on isues before people notice you even exist.............Americans may not always do the right thing but at least we're doing something............
Mylantis. In case you didnt know. This is the attitude the rest of the world gets upset about. The main difference is that some people laugh at the ignorence, others start making a bomb.

To wrap this up, I dont like the way this war started but I would very much like the US and GB to finish up the job quickly. After what I have seen on the news you are practically getting your *&%¤# kicked by freaking standard troops. Better shape up before the elite gets to you!
The war is already upon us. If the US and GB would withdraw now then Saddam would most definitly be impossible to deal with since he would take that as proof of is "divine power". Sure the attack will encourage terrorists to make attacks but they probably would have anyway. As a member of the Swedish Army I can only speak for myself when I say that I am prepared to deal with the situations that this war will create and defend us from any threat wheter it comes from Al-Quida, Iraq or......the US.

/Daniel Melin

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