THe return of the WSC

[Saladin]

I'll be honest but that to me is not an option. And it is definitely NOT the most democratic. Basically right now in most cases nothing gets decided and if something gets decided it's by a small group of people and the 'say' or vote of others get ignored.

In any of the proposals the discussions and such will stay the same as now. But things will actually get decided and decided by the community at large as there will be a vote on issues instead of just letting them bleed dry as happens a lot right now.

If you find it important that everybody can have his or her say than the first option is perfect for you.

[Calidus]

Sal has nailed it. The last post in the discussion about the new scoring method ended 13 days ago. What decision has been reached? NONE.

The WSC needs to be reinstated. No matter what happens, someone is going to be pissed off about the decision that's made. Pick one method and let's go with it. Then we can get some of these other rules issues squared away.

[trewqh]

Sal has nailed it. The last post in the discussion about the new scoring method ended 13 days ago. What decision has been reached? NONE.

I thought we agreed that we need to try out the new system. Even if, so far, noone volunteered to get their hands dirty and keep track of those points manually, I hope someone will once a regular game finishes (Risk World?)

[korexus]

Whether we're talking about in-game scoring or VP tracking, a decision *was* reached. However, shortly afterwards people started finding all sorts of bugs in the Duel engine and then wanting to make changes to the Standard rules.

I'm afraid that I an only do one thing at a time and I will tend to prioritise things which actually stop a game from working than things which just giv bragging rights. This would still be the case if the WSC was around. (Unless they voted to pay me so I could quit work... )

If someone wants to keep track of things, that's fine. That's the only appreciable difference I can see between a WSC set up and the current status quo.


Chris.

[Calidus]

Actually, my comment was misinterpreted, because, well, I didn't make what I was saying clear. What I meant was, Pick a method for the WSC and run with it, then let them deal with the rules issues, such as the VPs and Spy issues.


Chris,
I certainly understand your priorities. Please do not mistake my comment as criticism against you or any of the other programmers that work so diligently to make this game better.

[Vortan]

Well I think that in light of the low number of players currently active that two per clan would prove excessive. Thats half the community already. Then sit five programmers on there and 2 mercs plus the chair. I think this was said already.

BUT we COULD actually ASK people if they would be willing and able to take on the roll of council member.

Revert to one per clan, have one merc, one programming representative and the chair. This requires only 9 (if we have 6 clans). The programming rep would be voting on behalf of the other programmers and as such they should carry say 3 votes because at the end of the day they are the peeps who have to make the proposed changes work and this could take hours, even days.

I would respectfully nominate korexus for Chair, Clan reps Calidus, LM, TBert, Trewqh, Lord Fredo, Bryk (who although a programmer would be voting directly as a Scholar), Programming rep Hannibal, Merc rep Saladin or other LONG STANDING MERC (if any can be found).

If in times to come membership permitted additional members then the per clan could be upped to 2 as could the mercs with the programmer vote then being increased to the full 5.

Thoughts?

[Vortan]

Well that killed the debate.

[Vortan]

Would anyone having any objections to this nomination list please speak now. Particularily if you are named and dont want the job.

[trewqh]

I already expressed my view on reviving the WSC.

But I will take up a position in the WSC if I am given one once there's been a vote. Whichever solution wins.

[Dragonette]

.

I thought we agreed that we need to try out the new system. Even if, so far, noone volunteered to get their hands dirty and keep track of those points manually, I hope someone will once a regular game finishes (Risk World?)[/quote]

i would keep track of the points if people told me when a game had ended and i would put it on my very own post saying who scored what for each game and where people stand now.

I will not cheat or get confused i promise.

Dragonette

[trewqh]

Go for it, D.! Give it a try! That's defenitely worth it!

However, you should be aware that it might turn out that you will have to do most of the data mining (looking for the results of games) yourself. I know that from my experience with Duel standings. There are some very helpful players who will report new results or spot mistakes (thanks Vortan and Hannibal ), but you have to be ready to do most of the job.

Good luck!

[Saladin]

LOL Vortan you did two complete 180's in this thread. First you wanted to have 1 player = 1 vote. Than you agreed with Calidus on what now is option 3. And now you propose an option that is in essence almost the same as the WSC was structured (option 2).

But that's ok, because that's what these discussions are for to help us clear our minds on what would be best.

One thing though. Clan representatives are chosen by their own clan so other clans have no say in that. So you and i can nominate and vote on the merc representative(s).

[Saladin]

I shouldn't have put a vote question in a discussion thread as it muddles the votes overview. So i'm going to put the vote in a separate thread where people can only put the answer to the vote.

Once the vote is decided. The WSC can always restructure itself if it is felt that it should.

[Saladin]

Sorry, Sal. I wrote about this to you in a PM but my arguments seem not to affect you in any way.

You want more demoracy still this vote is totally undemocratic!!! I asked you to add a 4th option which says 'Let's not bring back the WSC yet'. This vote is biased because each option presupposes that WSC has to come back at this point. And by making this vote biased you totally ignore the opinion of at least three members of the WoK community. How democratic is that? I will also add that out of these three at least two kept the community alive in 2005 and 2006. (I will not make this claim about myself, I'll let the other two judge my contribution.)

Everyone, please reconsider your decision to take part in this vote for as along as the fourth option is not added.

I want this vote to be legitimate so that it truly reflects the opinon of the community.

Sigh, it's so hard for some people to follow a simple instruction. The other thread was for votes only. This thread is for discussion.

Anyway like i told you before. It is actually not a question of bringing the WSC back. The WSC was never disbanded some of it's members just disappeared. And this vote is therefore only on what form it should take.

Now if you want to disband the WSC (which is not the current status) feel free to ask for a vote to do so once this vote is done.

[Saladin]

Of course your last pm to me clearly shows how you really feel about this:

But if you want to tell me that the WSC is anything more than a set of words, if you say that it was the WSC not the 'dev team' that ensured that you could return to WoK after your hiatus then you seriously lost touch with reality. Or you're just trying to use a straw man argument.

It's clear that you feel that yes you as part of the development team should be in control because if it wasn't for you this game wouldn't have been around any more. I think Al would 'turn in his grave (if he was dead of course) when hearing that. As eventhough he created this game and website, paid for it himself for a long period of time and did all the development himself as well. He still believed that the community at large should run the game and decide on things not just him. Shame on you Mike! Shame on you!

[Vortan]

Someone call the fire brigade quick because I think this is in danger of getting out of hand

*Vortan grabs tin helmet and makes for the nuclear bunker*

[trewqh]

Your need to win the argument makes you bend facts, Sal. (And I'm not saying it's deliberate, it might be subconscious.)

You are right that the WSC was never disbanded. But since you said yourself it needs bringing back, then you recognise that currently it's not a working institution. Actually, it's a set of rules which were not applicable in anyway and were done away with. The WSC was suspended along with the Clan System. How can you say it wasn't if there were no WSC elections for 2 years?!?!

The way the community has been run for the last two years was so that the ones who did not abandon it, those who were truly active made decisions and did their best to make it better and attract more people. I'm not claiming my contribution was crucial but I am considered to be a part of the 'dev team' because I was here and I discussed stuff, I suggested stuff and I tested the innovations. I'm not saying I never left, either. I had my periods of hiatus. But I didn't have to bribe anyone to be on the 'dev team', someone thought my contribution was valuable.

I don't want people to think that there are some behind-the-scenes 'dev team' talks where decisions are made. No, this is not true. If there were behind-the-scenes talks, why would anyone even bother to discuss things on the forum?

I recognise the fact that we're growing and that formalizing the process of making decisions may be a good idea. What I only ask for is an option in the vote for the ones who don't think so. So far, Sal, you are the undemocratic figure in this argument.

And why do I think bringing back the WSC is not a good idea at this point? Because I'd like the decisions to be made by people who won't leave the community after sometime. That's what happened to the WSC. I know I can never be sure whether I myself won't have to leave at some point for reasons I don't yet know, but I've seen the process of decision making work great while being done by people who supported the community when others abandoned it.

Also, at the cost of making some members of the community discouraged by the way decision making works, I'd rather try to make sure that someone as crucial to the community's survival as korexus doesn't get discouraged by becoming the WSC's servant.

[Saladin]

Mike, i'm glad you made that clear. You're probably right. My 5 month absence in 7 years time due to serious personal reasons probably means that i'm not interested in the survival of this game and should shut the hell up.

I'm sure Calidus, Egbert, Duke, Brykovian, Raw, Smashie, Lardmaster, Lord Fredo, Goat Herder, Tbert and all the others veterans who now and again have taken a break from the game due to real life situations agree with you that their opinion, their vote shouldn't count for anything. Just because they now and again have had to put WOK on the backburner.

And of course all new enthusiastic players we are lucky to have now should also know their place and know their opinion counts for nothing.

Anyway that's all i'm going to say about this. If you feel that the WSC should be disbanded, i suggest you find two players to second your proposal and then it will be put to the vote, straight away.

[Vortan]

ALRIGHT - HAD ENOUGH NOW !

I think (yes it's true I do occasionally) that in the interest of community (with great emphasis on the ...unity bit!) that this vote be allowed to continue in it's current form and then (PLEASE ... LET THIS BE ENDED) if Trewqh feels the need to call for the Councils abolishen then that it be dealt with as a seperate issue entirely.

I don't want to upset anyone which is why, in the interests of peace and UNITY I am flexible enough to keep changing my mind (dizzy ...) and I URGE other people to adopt a similar openmindedness.

The need for this rational debate to become a personal battle between TWO VALUED members of the community puzzles me and although I have only been here since April you have become like a family to me.

So please fella's, come on. Let this ballot run as is and let's restore some semblance of order.

AND NO I WON'T SHUT UP! If you dont sort it out I will mail you both to death from multiple email addresses until you finally beg for mercy!

[Saladin]

If you dont sort it out I will mail you both to death from multiple email addresses until you finally beg for mercy!

Hehe...you do that already.