THe return of the WSC

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:59 pm

Well seeing that the WOK community is getting back on it's feet i think it's time to re-instate the WOK Supreme Council.

Basically the WSC is the place where all the final decisions regarding the game and the community are made.

Now the last time the WSC was 'in session' the rules of conduct were as follows:

http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/kaomaris/wsc.html

**By the way could we move this page to the kaomaris server as it would be a waste to lose it should the angelfire page expire.**

Now the WSC rules have always worked well, however i would like to propose on change from these rules and that is that we go back to giving every player in the game a personal vote. 1 player = 1 vote. We grouped clans together and had them represented by one clan member because the WSC was getting to big but with the current number of players going back to 1 player = 1 vote seems to be the most fair and democratic.

Now to make this official i will ask for a vote on this proposal will be decided upon by the whole community. The vote question will follow below.

The other issue we have to decide on is who is going to be the chair person of the WSC for this year. Everybody should feel free to nominate somebody (or themselves) for this position.

And to start of i would like to nominate Korexus as chair person.

Nominations for chair person of the WSC can be made till Sunday 1 July 2007 20:00 (GMT).

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:05 pm

VOTE 23:

Should the WSC consist of:

1. All WOK players. One player = One vote.

or

2. Continue with the old system meaning:

Code: Select all

"The WSC shall consist of one representative from every active clan, chosen by that clan, as well as one representative for every five long-standing members of the WOK Community. Also, Dark Monk has a permanent place on the WSC as the Creator of WOK. 

2. Long-standing members shall be defined as a member who has at least 2 Years in WOK OR finished at least 20 games OR GMd at least 10 games. These members shall elect the proper number of representatives every year, and all clan heads will have the responsibility of appointing representatives from their clan AFTER the long-standing members have been determined. "

All players will have a chance to vote on this. The deadline for this vote is Tuesday 3 July 2007 at 20:00 (GMT).

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:27 pm

With the greatest respect Saladin I think that this sounds like the WSC returning is a done deal? Is it really such a problem for us to continue open discussion among all - what 40 tops - actual active bodies including a crop of newbees who have no experience of the WSC?

It appears to me that this is an attempt to take the current democratic process away from the majority. I thought that I read one of your posts earlier saying how you objected to ultimate power being in the hands of one person. How is this better if its 5, 10, 15 etc, the end result is still the same. The majority of members are excluded from actual involvement and as a result would feel pushed away and unwelcome.

Before enforcing this new leadership upon us all I think you should first call a VOTE as to whether anyone actually wants the WSC to return. DO NOT ENFORCE IT WITHOUT MAJORITY CONSENT AND INFORMED DEBATE.

Yondallus · Post by **Yondallus** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:31 pm

I nominate Saladin, since he's taking the initiative to get this going again.

and I vote for 2. This will give a bigger vote to veteran players.

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:53 pm

Erm, i think you're not getting it Vortan. The idea (well my idea anyway) is to have the WSC consist of all players so everybody will have a vote in any decision made.

Now the reason to get the WSC back online is so that decisions will actually get made. All the discussions and such will stay the same, but after a time an actual decision will be made by popular vote.

So the goal is to make it all more democratic and not less.

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:04 pm

But the very inclusion of the 'keep it as it was' bit stops that entirely when people like Yondallus - sorry pal - post rediculous statements like the one above about Vets having more say.

Why should veterans have a bigger say, we are supposed to be a community of semi-intelligent people. As a result surely, in the interest of true democracy the option 2 shouldn't even be there.

If the WSC is to be brought back then make it on the terms of one person one vote. Anything other than this is an insult to our intelligence. The same deadlines for votes though, and when the deadline comes if you haven't voted tough. But on that, ALL registered members, currently active or otherwise should be emailed and advised that votes are to be taken. Perhaps this would lure some of them back. The beleif that they might actually be heard.

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:30 pm

Well the reason that the second option is in there is quite simple. It's the current rule. So people have to vote wether or not we are going to chance the rule back to how it originally was.

Though i have to say that nobody ever left WOK because they felt they weren't heard by the WSC. Actually the reason why the WSC was restructured was mainly because the group got too big and a big part of the members couldn't be bothered with all the discussions and votes.

They did want to have a say, but not have to bother with the long discussions. So the one representative per clan system was introduced and to make sure that nobody that really wanted to be part of the WSC was left out the 'veteran players' part was added. If i remember correctly nobody voted against the new clan representative system back then, which shows that nobody felt 'shut out' by it.

The clan representative system brought the WSC back to something like 15 people which was a lot more manageable.

Post by **Lardmaster** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:35 pm

Now I am a bit of a left wing liberal kind of guy but, and this isn't just to annoy you Vortan, promise!!, but I vote to retain the old voting order. With one exception. I've had a few beers but lets see if I can't summarise.

1) If a clan becomes dominant, i.e. has a greater number of members than most, which has happened in the past, then those members will tend to vote on bloc, swayed by their clan not by individual thought.

2) While this may seem bigotted, I have played this game almost since its inception. I have a better grasp of the playing engine and rules than someone juststarting out. Say I am some cocky teenager and get loads of my mates involved, come up with a stupid idea and get it forced through by weight of numbers. (An extreme example but you get the idea.)

3) Since Dark Monk no longer gives two, ahem, "hoots", for this game, his vote should be null and void

4) A veteran vote should only be given to those players active in the last 12 months.

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:35 pm

I am going to sleep on this one before voicing more opinions cos I am ... very tired indeed. Democracy can wait until morning.

Post by **Hryllantre** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:46 am

I believe the Clan Representative System should be used in it's present state to allow the WSC to function properly. It's voting regulations we're brought in to solve a problem that needed addressing...

I'm with LM's on points 1,2 and 4 whose Dark Monk anyway...

All games have there veteran element which is great especially when those players are present to share their knowledge...

Calidus · Post by **Calidus** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:11 am

Hryllantre wrote:I believe the Clan Representative System should be used in it's present state to allow the WSC to function properly. It's voting regulations we're brought in to solve a problem that needed addressing...

I'm with LM's on points 1,2 and 4 whose Dark Monk anyway...

All games have there veteran element which is great especially when those players are present to share their knowledge...

Um, dangnabbit you are new(er)

Dark Monk is AL, the original WOK God.

As for the voting:

Vortan, the representatives came about due to having 100-150 plus/minus active players. It was not uncommon for a discussion to last for weeks and weeks, with players from all over the world leaving 20-25 posts a day in the discussion. It had gotten too cumbersome to manage effectively, so the new rule was hatched.

The representative for each clan should always bring the information to his/her clan for discussion, then relay the ideas of the players to the WSC. I certainly understand your enthusiasm and desire to be a part of the process. When you have been around as long as some of us "old timers" you will have seen a large number of people come and go, and you will also understand the reason for the "veteran" players to have more sway with the WSC. Why should a group of young kids come in and force sweeping changes to the system simply because they have superior numbers, especially if they are not going to stick around like many of the veteran players have over the years?

How about the following proposal:

The three members at the top head of the WSC will be: Aussie Gaz, Korexus, and Brykovian. I believe the three of these gentlemen do a good deal of the programming for the new online goodies etc, and should be the final committee should the other members of the WSC effectively reach a tie in a vote. These three will be permanent members of the WSC.

As for the other members, Here is what I think we should have:

Each Clan Head and member, chosen from their respective Clan. (making it two representatives per clan) Sure seems like I have seen that type of thing somewhere before.......

Two VETERAN members of the Mercenaries would also have seats on the WSC. I believe these two members should be asked to join after a consensus from the current clan heads, and the above three mentioned individuals. (Bryk, Kor, and AG)

This will allow any newly formed clans to be added to the WSC, provided they meet the rules to be considered an active clan. This will also prevent one clan from being too dominant in a "one person, one vote" system.

Oh, and Vor, this would actually make the WSC a republic instead of a democracy.

I believe that these rules are similar to what is already in place, and would be an even representation across the WOK community. WADDA Y'ALL THINK????

TBert · Post by **TBert** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:59 am

EDIT : I didn't see Calidus' post until after I wrote this whole thing... so even though much of it is a repeat... read it anyway.

Well with the amount of new players we've got, coupled with the 'crustiness' of the veteran players, it would be difficult to form a WSC that represents both sides. Sure we could segregate the beginners and the vets, and have elections for each 'bloc', but I don't want any more segregation.

The main problem with the 1 player = 1 vote problem is that you have full threads discussing a change, complete with near-flames and random tangents, and then everyone gets tired of arguing about it and no decision is ever made.

I suppose we could combine the two. We make the WSC the old-fashioned way, one from each clan and one for the mercenaries, along with a few obvious people (Chris). Anyone can submit an idea to the WSC for approval, through either the chairman or their clan rep. The idea is then presented to the WSC, whether in a mailing list or separate forum. It's discussed, changed to be agreeable to a majority of the WSC, then presented to the general populace. When it's presented, the WSC will explain any changes, and the rationale behind the idea and the changes made. The general populace can then discuss, until the discussion dies down, and a vote can be made by all. After that vote passes or fails, the final change can be made.

This kind of representation will especially be needed if we continue this revitalization, and we all hope we do.

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:03 am

Okay, okay already. If the scheme is to go ahead in any form I respectfully request that Calidus has what would be a viable solution. It ensures that ideas of clansmen not sitting on said WSC would have two people for voicing ideas - I can live with that.

Long Live the Republic!

PS. Just sharpen the old Julius just in case ... huh ... you know ... et tu brutae ...

Dragonette · Post by **Dragonette** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:17 am

this is what calidus said:

The three members at the top head of the WSC will be: Aussie Gaz, Korexus, and Brykovian. I believe the three of these gentlemen do a good deal of the programming for the new online goodies etc, and should be the final committee should the other members of the WSC effectively reach a tie in a vote. These three will be permanent members of the WSC.

As for the other members, Here is what I think we should have:

Each Clan Head and member, chosen from their respective Clan. (making it two representatives per clan) Sure seems like I have seen that type of thing somewhere before.......

Two VETERAN members of the Mercenaries would also have seats on the WSC. I believe these two members should be asked to join after a consensus from the current clan heads, and the above three mentioned individuals. (Bryk, Kor, and AG)

calidus you said about korexus , brykovian and auzzie gaz being the 3 main people but if all the clans thoose someone to take a seat then the scholers will have three people their. I dont know if this makes it unfair or whether it wont affect things.

Just a pointer

Dragonette

Post by **korexus** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:38 am

Not really. When I was on the WSC as Scholars' representative, I voted for what the clan wanted - even if it wasn't what I wanted. As Calidus suggests it, I would vote what I think from a programming point of view and the Scholars' rep would pass on the clans thoughts.

Hey, I already post as two different people, as a player and a programmer, I could probably handle both posts myself!

Chris (or is it korexus

)

Saladin · Post by **Saladin** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:28 pm

Ok there have been some good ideas brought forward. At first i was planning to keep this a simple vote between two systems. And actually i was quite sure that most if not all people would vote for the true democratic form...silly me.

Ok, i did a quick check and right now we have 22 active players in total. 15 veteran players and 7 new players. Now with such a small number of players it does seem pretty silly to me to give 18 out of 22 players voting rights and leave those last 4 without.

Anyway, since we only have a handful of clans at the moment and we don't want to make the WSC too small i propose a third option that incorporates some of Calidus' and Tbert's suggestions.

The third option would be as follows:

- We keep the clan system, but every clan has two WSC representatives, mercenaries have two representatives as well.

- And we give a seat to the members of the current development team, which i believe currently are Chris, Matt, Aussie, Bob and Mike.

- Plus the WSC has the right to nominate other players to join the WSC, which have to be accepted with a 2/3 vote though.

This way as long as the community is small (like now) we can give almost everybody a vote. But when the community grows the WSC doesn't grow too big. Plus should the WSC feel that a certain player should also be part of the WSC they can always be added.

Of course the discussions and such are open to everybody, the make up of the WSC is just to decide who gets a vote.

Comments please.

Vortan · Post by **Vortan** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:47 pm

Happy - only 22 peeps though? Demandred will be disappointed he asked if we were active and I said about 40, perhaps I counted everone twice seen as how you all type so much

Calidus · Post by **Calidus** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:48 pm

Sounds reasonable to me. You've got my vote.

Dragonette · Post by **Dragonette** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:04 pm

i think we should have 4 main bodies. Korexus, Brykovian, auzzie gaz and hannibal.

i think hannibal should be a part of this due to the duel side of wok. i think it seems unfair that everynoe for wok 5 wok4 and the stonewar thing gets a place then the duel creator gets nothing a shambles:} .

i say lets give hannibal that place aswell. i think that the second method of voting is much better.

Dragonette

Post by **trewqh** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:23 pm

My 2 $/100.

I'd prefer to keep things the way they are now. Now, everyone has a 'vote' or at least a 'say'. I value consenuses (pl?) even at the cost of those being hard to achieve. And I don't think that with 22 players (not all of them active in debates) it's that hard. All of the recent heated debates seemed to end peacefully (ie. scoring).

I'd like that (letting WSC sleep some more until we grow bigger) to be added as an option of the vote.