WOK and its future ......

Its all WOK here.

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Post by Raw » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:36 pm

I see no commentary for Dukes game, did something go wrong with this?

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Post by trewqh » Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:35 am

Game commentary is now totally editable (including the auto-commentary). Duke might have decided to delete it or deleted it by mistake.
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Post by Raw » Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:59 pm

trewqh wrote:Game commentary is now totally editable (including the auto-commentary). Duke might have decided to delete it or deleted it by mistake.
Duke is mental...and a *editted :P *.

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Post by Duke » Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:27 pm

I havent touched a thing. Seriosly!
First one here, last one to leave.

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Post by trewqh » Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:34 pm

I think commentary should work correctly next turn.
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Post by korexus » Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:20 pm

The commentary is being produced properly as far as I can tell.

However, the OOP bug will lose the commentary too. - Looking for that now.


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Post by Hannibal » Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:05 pm

OK, #12 seems well underway, with the game-commentary looking much more attractive, interesting, and easier to follow, with the option of the GM editing it and adding a para. Many thanks.

Here's an easy #13:

If you look on the home page, on the right, you'll see a big box titled Survey, with a bold question: "How do you like WOK:ONLINE so far?", and a button to see results ....

Now, WE know that it was a survey asking us how we liked the NEW version of the site, with its online functions. But a casual or interested visitor could be forgiven for assuming it was a "How do you like the WOK game so far?" poll ........i.e. rating our GAME!

There are 5 boxes, but essentially: 28 people say "It's great!", and 24 people say "I don't like it" or "Not sure".

I'd bet that some visitors think that half the triallists don't like the game, even among those who vote, and it might put them off. More importantly, it's there for any new visitors we drive to the site to see?

So, let's delete it. Not just bounce it to "Previous polls" (they may easily find it with one click), but delete it entirely. IMHO.

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Post by Raw » Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:09 pm

Hannibal wrote:OK, #12 seems well underway, with the game-commentary looking much more attractive, interesting, and easier to follow, with the option of the GM editing it and adding a para. Many thanks.

Here's an easy #13:

If you look on the home page, on the right, you'll see a big box titled Survey, with a bold question: "How do you like WOK:ONLINE so far?", and a button to see results ....

Now, WE know that it was a survey asking us how we liked the NEW version of the site, with its online functions. But a casual or interested visitor could be forgiven for assuming it was a "How do you like the WOK game so far?" poll ........i.e. rating our GAME!

There are 5 boxes, but essentially: 28 people say "It's great!", and 24 people say "I don't like it" or "Not sure".

I'd bet that some visitors think that half the triallists don't like the game, even among those who vote, and it might put them off. More importantly, it's there for any new visitors we drive to the site to see?

So, let's delete it. Not just bounce it to "Previous polls" (they may easily find it with one click), but delete it entirely. IMHO.

Han
Agreed....

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Post by trewqh » Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:59 pm

Ditto.
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Post by korexus » Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:25 pm

It's gone.

If anyone would like to suggest a new poll topic, they're more than welcome...

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Post by Hannibal » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:19 pm

korexus wrote:It's gone.

If anyone would like to suggest a new poll topic, they're more than welcome...
Yep. Inevitably(?) I have one in mind. Hmmm, but it only makes sense when I say what #14 is ......I'd better think which comes first. Gimme some think-time.

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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:53 am

My mistake. Everything in a quote-box, so I've redone it lower down.
Last edited by Hannibal on Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:58 am

Still trying to get it right, sorry.
Last edited by Hannibal on Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:05 am

Hannibal wrote: Hey, if #11 and #12 are causing you difficulty, just wait till you hear #13 and #14 !! (Not so much technical difficulty as , er, agreement .....).

Cheers,
Han
OK, this is a fourth try to see if I can post it ....

OK, as advertised and warned, here are suggestions #14 and #15. They would have been #13 and #14 except that I threw in as an easy #13 to get rid of that poll on how much/little you like WOK-On ....., thus bumping my #13 and #14 plans to #14 and #15 .....

#!4 is to revise the "manual", ie the expression of rules. NO, no, I'm not trying to change the rules, just get them re-expressed in a coherent way, instead of the patched-up version of first-draft that they currently are?

Again, I'm looking at it from the POV of these prospective 50 new players ....... i.e. not whether it makes retrospective sense to us who know the rules, but whether it's clear enough for new people ..... it isn't.

You have to wind yourself back a bit or a lot to remember ..... but I still remember finding the "manual" (rules?) completely incoherent and having to work things out for myself, or pose stupid questions to my clan. E.g. if you don't believe me, taqke a look at Caster's early questions to Duke (On turn 1, do my victorious armies taking the first prov go on to be able to attack my second prov? [he expected the answer would be no .....]). E.g. Ada saying the rules were hard to follow. And e.g. the sheer number of new players who sign up but never actually play Turn 1 ??! Yep, I reckon it has a lot to do with not understanding the rules enough to have a clue what to do when it actually comes to the turn .....

I've re-written the rulebook a couple of weeks ago .... I HAD to when I was teaching new-players Reaper and Bloodaxe how to play. But I did it fast, and missed bits out (e.g. those spy order rules nobody ever uses .....)

And #15 is to revise the SAOF, the form to fill in to send in your orders.

Mull would confirm that I mentioned it a year or so back. The SAOF is very non-user-friendly, especially for new playes. Sure, it's logical, and sure, somebody put in some help buttons ..... but it's still a string of zeroes in [ ] to fill in.

I propose thet we put a few WORDS in-between the [ ]. E,g.:
Bombing: From [__] on [__], using [__] missiles.
and Attack: Attack from [__] to [__], attacking with [___] armies

etc
etc


(I have my own example I've used when recruiting new players, but it would just lengthen the post to copy it here .....)

THAT would make it much easier and less daunting to new players? Lower the barriers? Plus the "guidance" it tends to give them?

Han
[/quote][/quote]
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:34 am

Hmmm, that was a bit un-explanatory (short?) by my standards! So here's a bit more detail about what I mean by revising the SAOF to be more user-friendly .... if I manage to copy it from my PC to here ... I used this to explain WOK to my new recruits Reaper and Bloodaxe, and appended it to my re-write of the rules, as a handy appendix. I think it also captures what I mean by inserting words into the SAOF? Such that we might even make my "aide" and the SAOF one and the same? Who knows?


Player# _____ Colour ______________

1. Bombing (only after you’ve made missiles)

From _____ on ____, firing ____missiles
From _____ on ____, firing ____missiles
From _____ on ____, firing ____missiles
From _____ on ____, firing ____missiles
From _____ on ____, firing ____missiles

2. Attacks (normally limited to 3 attacks)

From _____ to _____ with_____ armies
From _____ to _____ with_____ armies
From _____ to _____ with_____ armies

(One more attack for each 50 Tech you have, after the bombing round, max of 7 attacks)
From _____ to _____ with_____ armies
From _____ to _____ with_____ armies
From _____ to _____ with_____ armies
From _____ to _____ with_____ armies

3. Your overall Eff decreases 1% per province you now have. 4. Workers work. Automatic.

5. Transformations (max 3 into Armies)

In ____, ____Pop into: Arm or Workers
In ____, ____Pop into: Arm or Workers
In ____, ____Pop into: Arm or Workers
In ____, ____Pop into: Arm or Workers
In ____, ____Pop into: Arm or Workers
In ____, ____Pop into: Arm or Workers
In ____, ____Pop into: Arm or Workers

6. All populations grow. Automatic.

7. Moves (max 7; move up to 50 per order)

From ___ to____, _____ A, W, P, S or M
From ___ to____, _____ A, W, P, S or M
From ___ to____, _____ A, W, P, S or M
From ___ to____, _____ A, W, P, S or M
From ___ to____, _____ A, W, P, S or M
From ___ to____, _____ A, W, P, S or M
From ___ to____, _____ A, W, P, S or M


8. Trade-in some Tech points? _______

9. Change Aim for workers -max 4 provs
(Def, Lev, Miss, Spies, Tech or Eff)

In ____, change to _______________
In ____, change to _______________
In ____, change to _______________
In ____, change to _______________

10. Spy orders
From _____, on _____, use _____spies
From _____, on _____, use _____spies
From _____, on _____, use _____spies
From _____, on _____, use _____spies
From _____, on _____, use _____spies
(See rules manual for other spy options)
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:07 am

Oh, and two things before I forget:

1) Let's turn the V1 (6) phases that currently apply in the rulebook, into 10 phases. I realise that it came from early testing; bu it's surely now crazy to have ONE phase for automatic working, followed by ONE phase that covers all your 7 transformation orders, plus some automatic pop-growth, plus all your 7 movement orders.... You think I'm exaggerating? No. Here's a tranche from the SAOF :



PHASE III - WORKING:
(No Orders required)

PHASE IV - TRANSFORMATIONS, GROWTH AND MOVEMENT:


(Maximum of 50 Units per Transformation and 50 Units per Move)
Also, only a Maximum of 3 POP-ARM Transformations are allowed !


OK, should be easy to make it 10 phases, which I found much easier to describe when I re-wrote the rules for new players to understand.

And (2) ... when we change it from V1 phases to 10 phases, can we please switch to 1-10 instead of 1- X, ie use arabic numerals as normal, forget these funny latin numerals for the phases?

Lots I could add, but enough for now,

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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:37 am

Another delete, sorry.
Last edited by Hannibal on Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hannibal » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:58 am

OK, I have this re-write of the rules. It worked well on my recruits Reaper and Bloodaxe. I promise you that the current "manual" would not have made things clear to them!

So, how do I offer my "Rules" to you guys to comment on? Too long to insert into a post (and what about my reputation?). So how do I "publish" it?

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Post by trewqh » Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:42 pm

1. I'll e-mail you about this, but in case you read it here first: Do you want me to delete the two unnecessary posts, Han? I mean the ones posted at 2:53 am and 2:58 am (that's CET).

2. Proposition #14:
I am totally for rewriting the rules. And I think it's good that Egbert started working on this on his own, as well as you have, Han. We will be able to compare two 'independent' versions and use both of them to create the final version. All in all, very good proposition! :2thumbs:

3. Proposition #15:
A very good idea which is not difficult to code at all (I think)! :2thumbs:
This change WILL make putting in orders easier for the newbies and at the same time will NOT be an obstacle to veterans. We might want to discuss the exact wording in some of the phases to make them as fool-proof as possible. (ex. your phase 8 - "How many tech points do you want to trade-in?" because your wording might make a player answer YES or NO). All in all, this is a great idea!

4. Phases:
I agree.

5. Publication of rules:
You could either ask korexus to put your ver of the rules somewhere on the WOK server and post the link here. Or you could send your rules to me and I'd publish it on the Vulkings page server and I would post the link here. Also, how about waiting before publishing your rules until Egbert finishes his? Just asking.
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Post by Hannibal » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:26 am

trewqh wrote:
2. Proposition #14:
I am totally for rewriting the rules. And I think it's good that Egbert started working on this on his own, as well as you have, Han.

Also, how about waiting before publishing your rules until Egbert finishes his? Just asking.
I didn't know Egbert was working on this. Is there a thread on it? In that case, sure, I'm glad someone's on it. Egbert will probably do a great job, so I'll leave it to him. It'll save me going back to put in all the bits i missed out (eg 3 of the spying options, the option of transforming workers back to POP, etc. etc.). No need to have both, let's go with Egbert's.

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