WOK and its future ......

Its all WOK here.

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Post by Hannibal » Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:22 am

I'm not sleepy yet, and games on other sites can wait till tomorrow.

I realise that continuing will annoy around 6 out of 10 current player/readers, but I probably won't get round to all my 29 action points if I stop now ....

5) Put a memberlist button on the main menu. At least it makes a visitor think that the community is big and thriving, and draws them in to check people out

6) Simplify and standardise the naming. How is a visitor to stand a chance of navigating his way through references to Wok4, Wok5, Kaomaris, WOK-ON, Wok-On ....He doesn't know what he's LOOKING FOR ! He lands in the middle, no sense of what to follow. Not at all obvious where to look. Hey, try it with a colleague - they'll never get to the games with open slots!! My simple suggestion is "Standard WOK" and "Advanced WOK", just like Civ and Advanced Civ ....obvious. (Terms like "Wok-on" and "WOK5" mean something to us but not to them! Again the syndrome of looking internally not externally. The "on" bit only means something to us who know it was once not online .... means nothing to newcomers looking for what is the standard game to join in with.

7) Give watchers/lurkers something to watch and follow. Another site I'm in has discovered that many potential newbies lurk/ watch games before joining in. Think about it, it's obvious. But it's not at all obvious how to do that in WOK! Even if you manage to guess your way through Main Menu - Wok-on - WOK-ON Lobby - Search for games - Funtified etc., even if all that, he STILL wouldn't know that a game, any of them, was actually a game in progress! How could you tell? (Go look at it?) It shows 7 games, 3 labelled PAUSED and 4 labelled RUNNING (is that clear enough?) Under "Next Turn", all 7 of them say "NOT DEFINED". You and I understand that, and know why. But look at it from the visitor's POV - what on earth signals to them that one of these games is actually live ?!!! OK, I'm doing Action, not Problem; so: AT THE LEAST, each GM should fill in the Next Turn field, not to benefit their players, but to make clear that it is CURRENT to visitors (and not just as old as the articles on the homepage). More than that, it would help if every GM at least insetred above the computer commentary WHEN the last turn was, and WHEN the the next turn is, i.e. when watchers can look out for progress they can follow.

7b) For watchers/lurkers/deciders/prospects, ideally we should point lurkers towards at least ONE current game-in-progress that is our "shop-window" game for them to follow. That is, a game we make optimal for lurkers to view and enjoy viewing: it has the facility to click back to previous maps (or at least the one previous map), and preferably has an interesting human-written commentary to interest the watcher, instead of those sterile computer-written ones we have all been glad to have from the online computer (Fine for players, no good for watchers, no good for our showcase for visitors). When I GM'ed, I put a lot of effort into the commentary, and I got quite a few PM's from watchers saying they enjoyed following the game.

Oops, already too long. Donut is excused from reading beyond point 2. The 11 action points on recruitment, 9 on retention and 4 on etiquette will have to wait till my next visit - if anyone is interested, and if I don't get put off by purely discouraging responses on the thread.
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Post by Hannibal » Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:59 am

Donut wrote:I read about 10 lines Han, then went on to the summary from the others. Honestly dude. :P

I've also seen this coming and have been losing interest. This is mostly because I've joined a couple other games and now am actually employed.

I completely agree with Sal. The other thing that needs to happen is that we need to make the game more fun. I'm curious, would it be possible for players to be able to send orders once a day? For WOK4 I think it's definitely possible... Here's my thinking: n00bs generally spend a lot of time at a new game, in order to learn it and due to the initial excitement. Vets can easily do decent orders in 5-10 minutes. Decreasing lead-time (haha... I'm an engineer, I get to use big words too :P ) would increase some excitement.

The thing with this is that I think it would decrease teamwork for those in different time-zones/different internet access habits. But, I assume that everyone checks the site at least once a day (Duke?) and would be able to send orders.

As for the home page.
www.agesofwar.com
games.swirve.com/utopia/

These are the two games that I've started. Their homepages tell you exactly what they are all about, and give members easy access to the entire page. I was a big proponent of making all pages the same format, which is why all of my pages are pretty close to each other, but they are still outside of the main WOK site. All official sites need to be in the frame of the page. This will probably take Korexus, or someone else with knowledge of php to do it.

Lets kick the tires and light the fires.
I lost you after babout 10 lines, ie. about a third of the way through, ie. immediately on the words "Here's my thinking ...."

You continue, once again, to moan about the lengths of my posts. I've ignored those snipes till now.

Hey, dude, it's simple: Just imagine that they are not written for you!

After all, you have a free choice: you can read 'em or skip 'em, easy as that, such that those who want to read can, and those who don't want to, don't have to.

As Churchill famously said: " I'm sorry this letter is long - I didn't have time to make it a short one." - you expect more of me if you think I'll go back and shorten what I've written.

You say you skipped to someone's summary? ..... nope. wrong. there's no summary of what I said, just quotes. Which "summary" did you mean? Pls answer.

Hmmm, got to try to leave you with a thought that might just shake you out of your negativity: ....

Do you agree that fewer people posting, and fewer posts, makes the site look more dead and less interesting? Do you think that your comments are likely to make me continue to contribute, or make me stop? Have you seen people stomping on posts and making posters give up and go away (Blinky and others spring to mind)? Are you trying to put peoplke off posting? Why? And I have to say that, on other sites I've joined, there are longer posts than mine, and no unpleasant discouragement from posting. Maybe they've got it right.

Hey, dude, if your attention span is limited to 10 lines, how do you ever have the patience to get through a game's rulebook, or indeed a Turn Report? ! Just kidding.

But seriously: You have the option of skipping, Feel free. I did when you said the chatroom would solve everything. But don't knock people's style of posting, or you'll simply put them off bothering to post, and you'll be down to even fewer posters, making the site seem even more dead to potential recruits.

Think first: You want to encourage or discourage posting? Think hard.
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Post by Duke » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:39 am

Seem a bit wound up here Han. Did something crawl up and die where the sun dont reach?

Seriously. Ignore us and our "smart" remarks. THIS IS SWEET MUSIC TO MY EARS!!!!!

For whatever it is worth I agree to every single letter posted by Hannibal here since he went on his quest last night (after a night at the pub maybe?)

I strongly agree with Phred. Hire the man! Or at least give him some sort of title to print on a business card so that he can tell people that after he killed all those people at the advertising agency by babbling them to death he has picked himself up and found a new job.

Sorry H. Cant resist making some fun about you. Sincerely I place you as one of the top five best things that has washed up on the shores of Kaomaris.
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Post by Saladin » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:52 am

Hannibal wrote:1) You need a "HOW TO JOIN IN" button in the main menu. (In my pdf explaining the game [New Visitors Look Here], the instructions at the end on how to join, in are now wrong, since you improved the main menu and removed the "MY LOBBY" that I told them to look for high on the left of the home page ....). You need the simple "Join" button as well as something explaining the game such as my pdf.
Added. Though i plan to do a complete rehaul of the first page to give new visitors a chance to see what WOK's about in just one view.

Hannibal wrote:2) Ideally a prominent Guestbook for visitor comments. Not only to hear what's putting them off joining in (therefore what to address); not only to be able to recontact them to invite them in; but also to gauge whether you are in fact getting any real visitor traffic, as opposed to just current players looking in without logging on .....
Will add this as well.
Hannibal wrote:3) You need more posts, from more people, to make the site look more active and alive. And, longer and more explanatory posts are better for visitors than short, knocking ones. Stop thinking in terms of only what current players will prefer...
I fully agree. It's important that the site gets more activity, not just for any possible new players, but also to make it more interesting for the old players to visit the site daily or better yet several times a day. So come on people POST on the forum and if you've got something interesting for the front page post it and i'll put it up!
Hannibal wrote: 4) You should kill or hide the chatroom. Being seen to be empty, it just makes the community look dead.
I took it of the front page, though it can still be accessed via the menu.
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Post by Saladin » Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:04 am

Hannibal wrote:5) Put a memberlist button on the main menu. At least it makes a visitor think that the community is big and thriving, and draws them in to check people out.
Will add this. I was thinking that instead of the site membership button which gives a dull overview, i might put the Kaohalla list.
Hannibal wrote:6) Simplify and standardise the naming. How is a visitor to stand a chance of navigating his way through references to Wok4, Wok5, Kaomaris, WOK-ON, Wok-On ....He doesn't know what he's LOOKING FOR ! He lands in the middle, no sense of what to follow. Not at all obvious where to look. Hey, try it with a colleague - they'll never get to the games with open slots!! My simple suggestion is "Standard WOK" and "Advanced WOK", just like Civ and Advanced Civ ....obvious. (Terms like "Wok-on" and "WOK5" mean something to us but not to them! Again the syndrome of looking internally not externally. The "on" bit only means something to us who know it was once not online .... means nothing to newcomers looking for what is the standard game to join in with.
I fully agree with this. I've changed all the references in the menu and forum categories. I would appreciate it if people would start refering to the games as standard wok and advanced wok from now on.

I will also have a look at the manuals to changes the naming in there, but i could use some help here as there's a lot of manuals in a lot of different languages. Also Josh could you change the naming to standard and advanced wok on the score and clan pages you're taking care of?

If people find references to wok 4/wok 5 on the site (other than the forum), let me know and i'll adjust it!

Hannibal wrote:7) Give watchers/lurkers something to watch and follow. Another site I'm in has discovered that many potential newbies lurk/ watch games before joining in. Think about it, it's obvious. But it's not at all obvious how to do that in WOK! Even if you manage to guess your way through Main Menu - Wok-on - WOK-ON Lobby - Search for games - Funtified etc., even if all that, he STILL wouldn't know that a game, any of them, was actually a game in progress! How could you tell? (Go look at it?) It shows 7 games, 3 labelled PAUSED and 4 labelled RUNNING (is that clear enough?) Under "Next Turn", all 7 of them say "NOT DEFINED". You and I understand that, and know why. But look at it from the visitor's POV - what on earth signals to them that one of these games is actually live ?!!! OK, I'm doing Action, not Problem; so: AT THE LEAST, each GM should fill in the Next Turn field, not to benefit their players, but to make clear that it is CURRENT to visitors (and not just as old as the articles on the homepage). More than that, it would help if every GM at least insetred above the computer commentary WHEN the last turn was, and WHEN the the next turn is, i.e. when watchers can look out for progress they can follow.

7b) For watchers/lurkers/deciders/prospects, ideally we should point lurkers towards at least ONE current game-in-progress that is our "shop-window" game for them to follow. That is, a game we make optimal for lurkers to view and enjoy viewing: it has the facility to click back to previous maps (or at least the one previous map), and preferably has an interesting human-written commentary to interest the watcher, instead of those sterile computer-written ones we have all been glad to have from the online computer (Fine for players, no good for watchers, no good for our showcase for visitors). When I GM'ed, I put a lot of effort into the commentary, and I got quite a few PM's from watchers saying they enjoyed following the game.
Good point. I think we should make the game that Adam put up for new players to learn from our 'show' game. That's a finished game with explanation which should give new players all the info they want. I'll make sure i'll link prominently to it on the new home page.

And as Han says, a lot of players (including me) like to follow other games to see how people are doing and watch the action. This is only fun if there's some nice commentary from the GM. So please GM's give the players and the watchers something to enjoy! :D


Now Han, lets have the other suggestions, so we can implement them as well. :D
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Post by gm_al » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:19 pm

Im not clear on your terminology. I like the terms "standard" and "advanced" WOK - but do you mean WOK4/WOK5 or the fact that one is for Beginners and the other for Advanced (online) players ?

In fact even WOK-ON is a wrong term. If the future is making all games available online (I cross my fingers) then the "online" addition is useless.

Note that right now you have "standard" WOK online games that can use "advanced" difficulty... quite confusing if you wish the term "advanced" point to WOK5 games.

So why not have...

STANDARD WOK (online WOK4, split into BEGINNER and ADVANCED levels)

and

EXPERT WOK (the upcoming WOK5 online, just for the ADVANCED level players)

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Post by Raw » Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:08 pm

I can't believe I read all that, but I did. Some good points in there. I love Donut.

-Raw

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Post by Duke » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:39 am

Where is donut?
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Post by Raw » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:55 pm

Duke wrote:Where is donut?
Super Mom's.

He's playing his fiddle.

Working, School?

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Post by Hannibal » Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:46 pm

Hi ! Dropping by after 2 weeks or so.

I'm gratified (and a tad surprised) that my 8 action points got a couple of positive comments rather than only a horde of disagreements and putdowns. In case anyone noticed, I DID drop by for 2 minutes a couple of days ago, but when the site came up, I suddenly got a big feeling of "No, I don't really want to see any replies", so I logged off before even getting to the forums. But now I've looked.

Must be the new "all in this together" that Saladin is pushing. Well done, Sal, for kinda taking charge. I'm impressed and wish you well. As I said once before, you and I are very alike .... and would have been firm friends if you hadn't been so arrogant to a newbie when I started ... and then so resentful when that newbie beat you twice (I remember your STFU post ....). Water under the bridge. You're a good guy really. I support you.

Im not clear on your terminology. I like the terms "standard" and "advanced" WOK - but do you mean WOK4/WOK5 or the fact that one is for Beginners and the other for Advanced (online) players ?
Does this need an answer? Wasn't it obvious? I so respect Al-Mighty for devising the game and making it happen, that I hesitate to annoy him. But, yes, I mean that WOK4 becomes "Standard WOK", and WOK5 becomes "Advanced WOK". Just like Civ. The fact that one is done in an online way, and the other not, is just current mechanics of how to play.. And, further subdivisions of beginner/experienced come in only when a GM is flagging their game and saying who qualifies to apply to join in, as is used elsewhere successfully. No problem.
In fact even WOK-ON is a wrong term. If the future is making all games available online (I cross my fingers) then the "online" addition is useless.
I fully agree. That's what I was saying. WOK-ON only means something to those who know it wasn't online before, and WOK 5 is not online yet .... meaningless to the new visitor arriving at the site ... He should be attracted to something called "Standard WOK" (obvious to him) and then look for games, some of which the GM will say are open to all, some the GM might say are open only to experienced players (avoid the confusing use of "advanced players"). No confusion.
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Post by Brykovian » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:42 pm

Hannibal wrote:
Brykovian wrote:
As for the other things ... Han, can you state in a short, simple format what you think will "save the world" of Kaomaris? I don't remember your solution(s) being presented before, but it may have been in one of your longer posts and was swallowed up by all the wrap-around content and atmosphere.

-Bryk
Gee, since you ask so nicely, how could I possibly refuse? :roll:
If you didn't think I was smiling when I wrote that original response, then you need to stop swinging for a moment ... not everyone is against you, man -- some are even entertained.

But, my point -- which you obviously got -- was to get down to the well-defined action items instead of the fuzzy grand analysis with odd sprinklings of grudge-tweaking. Your most recent posts were on target, as evidenced by Sal's ability to jump on them and say "done" to some of the points you raised.

I don't care how *much* you write ... I can actually sit and read lengthy written pieces (sometimes even whole books with no pictures!!) without much trouble. But having all of the thoughts pulled down into a focused collection of digestable items makes life so much easier ... thanks.

-Bryk
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Post by Xechortariaste » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:10 pm

Brykovian wrote:... I can actually sit and read lengthy written pieces (sometimes even whole books with no pictures!!) without much trouble.
No pictures? Now why would you ever do such a thing? :wink:

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Post by Duke » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:27 am

I'm with Bryk on this Hannibal. I sincerely call for you to hang around and move things in the right direction around here.

About the books though, do they at least describe naked women? Still dont see how that could be at all better then an actual picture of one.
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Post by Hannibal » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:56 pm

Duke wrote:

Seriously. Ignore us and our "smart" remarks. THIS IS SWEET MUSIC TO MY EARS!!!!!

Sorry H. Cant resist making some fun about you. Sincerely I place you as one of the top five best things that has washed up on the shores of Kaomaris.
Hey, Duke!

Don't worry - I never take offence all the times you're ribbing me. Somehow you do it right, no problem. I think I've thanked you before, yes?

I guess it's because you're so humble when you post .... you put yourself down as well ..... never has humility been so well martialled, and never so well deserved .....

Han :) (I love ya, Duke, no offence intended)
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Post by Hannibal » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:18 pm

Brykovian wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Brykovian wrote:
As for the other things ... Han, can you state in a short, simple format what you think will "save the world" of Kaomaris? I don't remember your solution(s) being presented before, but it may have been in one of your longer posts and was swallowed up by all the wrap-around content and atmosphere.

-Bryk
Gee, since you ask so nicely, how could I possibly refuse? :roll:
If you didn't think I was smiling when I wrote that original response, then you need to stop swinging for a moment ... not everyone is against you, man -- some are even entertained.

But, my point -- which you obviously got -- was to get down to the well-defined action items instead of the fuzzy grand analysis with odd sprinklings of grudge-tweaking. Your most recent posts were on target, as evidenced by Sal's ability to jump on them and say "done" to some of the points you raised.

I don't care how *much* you write ... I can actually sit and read lengthy written pieces (sometimes even whole books with no pictures!!) without much trouble. But having all of the thoughts pulled down into a focused collection of digestable items makes life so much easier ... thanks.

-Bryk
(the lurker)
Bryk, you're obviously one of the basically good guys, but surely you must at least half recognise that your post was a putdown? Surely. Read it again. Compare it with Duke's harmless ribbing that I enjoy. Hey, if it had only been you, I wouldn't have contributed anything further after that unpleasant post of yours! Yes, I guess that the written format risks offence for all of us (including this post to you .... so I'd better say that it is intended with wit and fun and I'm only kidding you :) )

You surely gotta admit thast your post was not likely to make me want to contribute further, right?

And you fool yourself if you think that it nevertheless led to me giving action points as you wanted them; your post put me off bothering; Duke's post made me bother. (Plus I didn't want any of the 6 readers of the thread across the planet to think I was just making it up when I
said I had a lot of action-points)

Net,net ... it's odd that you and I fight. You are one of the good guys. I've never said anything against you. You had a go at me and failed to make it friendly. So it goes.
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Post by Saladin » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:58 pm

So Han, what other action points did you have for us?
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Post by Brykovian » Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:20 pm

Hannibal wrote:Bryk, you're obviously one of the basically good guys, but surely you must at least half recognise that your post was a putdown? ...
My apologies then ... it was definitely meant in the aire of creative sparing -- I had thought you didn't mind engaging in that.


Quick points:
  • I'm sorry it made you feel like *not* continuing to contribute -- the intent was to egg you on and give you a reason to focus
  • While I don't think my comment "made" you get to your action points, I had only hoped it would bring you around to that a bit more quickly ... if it had no positive impact whatsoever, then I can accept that -- happens with me everyday (sometimes I hit, sometimes I miss)
  • I will never be able to be Duke ... no one else will
  • I'm very hard to offend ... I suppose I shouldn't always assume others are on the same train
  • I still don't think that we're "fighting" ... I did intend it as a friendly exchange ... but if you see otherwise, then I can only ask that you reconsider
  • At this point, I'll quit responding, since my replies have been putting you off ... and that's not constructive ... feel free to pick up the conversation with Sal
Cheers,
-Bryk
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Post by Duke » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:17 pm

Brykovian wrote: [*]I will never be able to be Duke ... no one else will
Thats right and dont you forget it.

On the other hand, similar things have probably been said about Stalin, Hitler and Hannibal Lector.... :shock: Hanni....wait now.

*smiles at Hannibal*

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Post by TBert » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:07 am

Brykovian wrote:[*]I will never be able to be Duke ... no one else will
I don't know, Smashface and I were doing pretty good back in our "20 posts a day" phase. Yeah, my entire Junior and Senior year of high school.

I keep on bringing old stuff up on these forums. I need to make new WOK memories.
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Post by Duke » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:43 pm

Oh how I have longed for someone to remeniss (sp?) with.

And about the posts, it isnt the amount of it, it is the size.... :?:

It is the size and how you use it and not what colour it is....no, hold on...

....eeeeh it is what mental state you are in and not if you are stationed in a sweet resort on Hawaii instead of downtown Iraqville.


Nevermind. I can still top you on how to describe a good porno setting.
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