WOK and its future ......

[Hannibal]

Hi guys,

It's been months. I check in once in a while just to see how my old clanmates are doing since I quit/paused, and to check that Raw-Nerve (my nemesis - look it up, Raw!) is not being too abusive in the interim (again a word that Raw [American] might have to look up!).

It doesn't matter much what I say - I quickly scanned the forums and found that the Community had reduced to about 7 active players and maybe 10 who scan the forums. So, I could care less about what 10 scattered people across the planet think of me when I post! [ Note to posters: the replies you get are just from those who disagree; those who agreed tend to stay silent].

So, even my mind-battle with Raw is pretty small, only about 10 people across the whole planet watching. Except that it matters so much to him (his main hobby?), and rather less to me (I'm just revisiting). But I like to bite back ....[Raw started this, after lots of times of me being reasonable to him to kep it civil - look it up, 'Nerve!].



So why do I bother? Well. I've just read how things are going. It LOOKS like terminal decline for WOK :
1) active players down to about 7, for a 10-player game
2) only about 10 ever post on the boards, and read stuff like this
3) Games don't get filled up - one WOK4 game has been waiting months for players 4-10
4) Games suffer massive drop-out and M-3 as plasyers, both old and new, get disillusioned.
5) Consequently, we don't start games (they won't fill), so, rare starts for games, few GM's, and GM's who know it won't fill to 10 even if they try 6) A casual approach to the game, eg lots of Quit and M-3, such that even the games that run are vitiated (Raw?) and either are spoilt or are paused indefinitely
7) So, few games get started, so that newbies cannot try us unless they have unlimited patience
GM's don't wish to start games, because slots won't fill, so games don't start, so potential newbies look elsewhere and are lost - vicious downward spiral
9) Al understandably loses patience/commitment with his invention, so puts less effort in (NB: that is OUR fault more than his, guys!)
10) Stupid people unwittingly hasten the demise of WOK by being arrogant towards newbies, not being sporting, making it a poisonous community and generally being Bad-Asses and putting people off - a far lessfriendly community than I have since found elsewhere !!

Hmmm. Do I care? Yep, or I wouldn't bother writing this for only about 10 readers across the planet! No skin off my nose (Raw?) if it doesn't engender (Raw?) a change of style. I've found other sites and they are MUCH friendlier and don't have members like Raw in them, and they thrive with increasing numbers ....

Sad thing is, Al created a VERY good game here, which desrves to go big, but the community got hijacked by a Bad-Ass atmosphere, so that most players want, sooner or later, to leave, newbie or vet. So it is in process of dying, no? Especially since the arrogant attitude of vets is "bring 'em on", they're glad to cream the newbies (someone lamented on thew boards that every vet just chooses to smash the newbies, but they ended up doing the same anyway?! 'cos other vets were targetting the poor newbies, so they'd be disadvantaged if they didn't?!).

OK. Ignore this if you think the WOK community has no problem and will be fine.

Think hard if if you are a devotee (one of the last 7?) And don't want the game-community to fold, as it is clearly heading towards. I said about 6 months ago that it was heading for this. And I know why, and what would solve it. I could solve it. But why should I try? Great game, lousy atmosphere compared with akternatives.

Maybe we should delete this thread after a week or two, so that it does not sit there for future newbies if you ever get them. Fine, so long as you face the reality of a community that is close to folding. Hey, I left a while back when I saw how Bad-Ass the community was. Just can't easily say bye-bye 'cos the game itself is good ....Ah, well ....

Hey, do any of you guys want to rescue this game and community, or would you rather score points (in your eyes) and be part of why it dies on you? Let's face it: it's dying; question is whether people will help rescue it or continue (unwittingly?) to kill it.

~ Han

PS. There are lots of threads I glimpsed that I want to comment on. When I have time. No stopping me. Since I stopped playing, and went elsewhere, I have so much less to lose than those who'll be offended !! Soon. It would be relatively easy to fix, but the most loud-mouthed seem to have a death-wish to kill their hobby.

I will be amazingly unamazed when I get only 3 reply-posts, all negative. Your own funeral.

[Raw]

Once again Han....I am going to give you the old FU. You never let things die.

Can you tell me what the word 'akternatives' is?

Cheers,
Raw

Hi guys,

It's been months. I check in once in a while just to see how my old clanmates are doing since I quit/paused, and to check that Raw-Nerve (my nemesis - look it up, Raw!) is not being too abusive in the interim (again a word that Raw [American] might have to look up!).

It doesn't matter much what I say - I quickly scanned the forums and found that the Community had reduced to about 7 active players and maybe 10 who scan the forums. So, I could care less about what 10 scattered people across the planet think of me when I post! [ Note to posters: the replies you get are just from those who disagree; those who agreed tend to stay silent].

So, even my mind-battle with Raw is pretty small, only about 10 people across the whole planet watching. Except that it matters so much to him (his main hobby?), and rather less to me (I'm just revisiting). But I like to bite back ....[Raw started this, after lots of times of me being reasonable to him to kep it civil - look it up, 'Nerve!].



So why do I bother? Well. I've just read how things are going. It LOOKS like terminal decline for WOK :
1) active players down to about 7, for a 10-player game
2) only about 10 ever post on the boards, and read stuff like this
3) Games don't get filled up - one WOK4 game has been waiting months for players 4-10
4) Games suffer massive drop-out and M-3 as plasyers, both old and new, get disillusioned.
5) Consequently, we don't start games (they won't fill), so, rare starts for games, few GM's, and GM's who know it won't fill to 10 even if they try 6) A casual approach to the game, eg lots of Quit and M-3, such that even the games that run are vitiated (Raw?) and either are spoilt or are paused indefinitely
7) So, few games get started, so that newbies cannot try us unless they have unlimited patience
GM's don't wish to start games, because slots won't fill, so games don't start, so potential newbies look elsewhere and are lost - vicious downward spiral
9) Al understandably loses patience/commitment with his invention, so puts less effort in (NB: that is OUR fault more than his, guys!)
10) Stupid people unwittingly hasten the demise of WOK by being arrogant towards newbies, not being sporting, making it a poisonous community and generally being Bad-Asses and putting people off - a far lessfriendly community than I have since found elsewhere !!

Hmmm. Do I care? Yep, or I wouldn't bother writing this for only about 10 readers across the planet! No skin off my nose (Raw?) if it doesn't engender (Raw?) a change of style. I've found other sites and they are MUCH friendlier and don't have members like Raw in them, and they thrive with increasing numbers ....

Sad thing is, Al created a VERY good game here, which desrves to go big, but the community got hijacked by a Bad-Ass atmosphere, so that most players want, sooner or later, to leave, newbie or vet. So it is in process of dying, no? Especially since the arrogant attitude of vets is "bring 'em on", they're glad to cream the newbies (someone lamented on thew boards that every vet just chooses to smash the newbies, but they ended up doing the same anyway?! 'cos other vets were targetting the poor newbies, so they'd be disadvantaged if they didn't?!).

OK. Ignore this if you think the WOK community has no problem and will be fine.

Think hard if if you are a devotee (one of the last 7?) And don't want the game-community to fold, as it is clearly heading towards. I said about 6 months ago that it was heading for this. And I know why, and what would solve it. I could solve it. But why should I try? Great game, lousy atmosphere compared with akternatives.

Maybe we should delete this thread after a week or two, so that it does not sit there for future newbies if you ever get them. Fine, so long as you face the reality of a community that is close to folding. Hey, I left a while back when I saw how Bad-Ass the community was. Just can't easily say bye-bye 'cos the game itself is good ....Ah, well ....

Hey, do any of you guys want to rescue this game and community, or would you rather score points (in your eyes) and be part of why it dies on you? Let's face it: it's dying; question is whether people will help rescue it or continue (unwittingly?) to kill it.

~ Han

PS. There are lots of threads I glimpsed that I want to comment on. When I have time. No stopping me. Since I stopped playing, and went elsewhere, I have so much less to lose than those who'll be offended !! Soon. It would be relatively easy to fix, but the most loud-mouthed seem to have a death-wish to kill their hobby.

I will be amazingly unamazed when I get only 3 reply-posts, all negative. Your own funeral.

[Raw]

Han,

On a more serious note. I am currently in my last games of WOK. I will stay away for a while, and since you think that I am the cancer I expect to see a full community the day I return.

As for beating up newbies, I don't believe in that one bit. I like to give them a chance in every game. If you watched the Funtified game, you'd see that Protput I left alone, Spade I left alone. Both were close to me and could have been easy targets. (Please don't take offense Protput or Spade)

Anyway, I don't know why I am defending myself when I know that I haven't done anything wrong besides pick on you and become your nemesis.

Cheers,
Raw

[Brykovian]

Han has made some good points (although a bit hard to wade through ... but even I, one of the lazy, dim-bulbed, and overweight Yanks aroudn these parts did get through it).

First thing I'd like to ask is for both Raw and Han to quit talking at each other. Quit picking that scab -- it's quite gross enough as is for the rest of us.

As for the other things ... Han, can you state in a short, simple format what you think will "save the world" of Kaomaris? I don't remember your solution(s) being presented before, but it may have been in one of your longer posts and was swallowed up by all the wrap-around content and atmosphere.

-Bryk

[Raw]

I've let it go, but every time han comes back and posts (once a month or so) he goes directly at me. Anyway I don't care, I just hope han can save the community and the world while he is at it.

Han has made some good points (although a bit hard to wade through ... but even I, one of the lazy, dim-bulbed, and overweight Yanks aroudn these parts did get through it).

First thing I'd like to ask is for both Raw and Han to quit talking at each other. Quit picking that scab -- it's quite gross enough as is for the rest of us.

As for the other things ... Han, can you state in a short, simple format what you think will "save the world" of Kaomaris? I don't remember your solution(s) being presented before, but it may have been in one of your longer posts and was swallowed up by all the wrap-around content and atmosphere.

-Bryk

[Brykovian]

I've let it go, but every time han comes back and posts (once a month or so) he goes directly at me.

Yep ... it's going to take both of you to drop it. Your obsessive love affair for each other is as ugly as 4 men in a compact car. "Do it for the children!"

-Bryk

[Raw]

I was thinking more along the lines of 2 men on a motorcycle.

I've let it go, but every time han comes back and posts (once a month or so) he goes directly at me.

Yep ... it's going to take both of you to drop it. Your obsessive love affair for each other is as ugly as 4 men in a compact car. "Do it for the children!"

-Bryk

[Duke]

*looks at Raw and Brykovian*

Ok, settle down Hannibal. I'd like to approach your post with a few points.

* Dying community

I have had this feeling for years and all of a sudden it bursts into life again. I dont know if it is luck or what it is but it has a tendency to stay alive. You are right about that something needed to be done. I have made efforts at this before but my problem is that I am all fun and no work. I quickly quit at my efforts.

* Grudge match

I dont care who started it but I know for a fact that when there is a flamer going about people quit reading. Drop it here and continue it in a different thread or in a all-male bar or something.

* Positive, not negative

We need to find solutions. Not problems. (and dont give me that crap about the need of finding the problems before we could develop the solutions. You know what I mean)

Anyway, we need a guy like you here Hannibal. Please stay. Ignore toy *looks at Raw and whispers "play along"*.

No seriously, we need you here.

[Brykovian]

I want to make sure this point, from my original reply doesn't get lost in the off-topic chatter ...

As for the other things ... Han, can you state in a short, simple format what you think will "save the world" of Kaomaris? I don't remember your solution(s) being presented before, but it may have been in one of your longer posts and was swallowed up by all the wrap-around content and atmosphere.

-Bryk

[Lord Fredo]

Hi guys,

It's been months. I check in once in a while just to see how my old clanmates are doing since I quit/paused, and to check that Raw-Nerve (my nemesis - look it up, Raw!) is not being too abusive in the interim (again a word that Raw [American] might have to look up!).

It doesn't matter much what I say - I quickly scanned the forums and found that the Community had reduced to about 7 active players and maybe 10 who scan the forums. So, I could care less about what 10 scattered people across the planet think of me when I post! [ Note to posters: the replies you get are just from those who disagree; those who agreed tend to stay silent].

So, even my mind-battle with Raw is pretty small, only about 10 people across the whole planet watching. Except that it matters so much to him (his main hobby?), and rather less to me (I'm just revisiting). But I like to bite back ....[Raw started this, after lots of times of me being reasonable to him to kep it civil - look it up, 'Nerve!].



So why do I bother? Well. I've just read how things are going. It LOOKS like terminal decline for WOK :
1) active players down to about 7, for a 10-player game
2) only about 10 ever post on the boards, and read stuff like this
3) Games don't get filled up - one WOK4 game has been waiting months for players 4-10
4) Games suffer massive drop-out and M-3 as plasyers, both old and new, get disillusioned.
5) Consequently, we don't start games (they won't fill), so, rare starts for games, few GM's, and GM's who know it won't fill to 10 even if they try 6) A casual approach to the game, eg lots of Quit and M-3, such that even the games that run are vitiated (Raw?) and either are spoilt or are paused indefinitely
7) So, few games get started, so that newbies cannot try us unless they have unlimited patience
GM's don't wish to start games, because slots won't fill, so games don't start, so potential newbies look elsewhere and are lost - vicious downward spiral
9) Al understandably loses patience/commitment with his invention, so puts less effort in (NB: that is OUR fault more than his, guys!)
10) Stupid people unwittingly hasten the demise of WOK by being arrogant towards newbies, not being sporting, making it a poisonous community and generally being Bad-Asses and putting people off - a far lessfriendly community than I have since found elsewhere !!

Hmmm. Do I care? Yep, or I wouldn't bother writing this for only about 10 readers across the planet! No skin off my nose (Raw?) if it doesn't engender (Raw?) a change of style. I've found other sites and they are MUCH friendlier and don't have members like Raw in them, and they thrive with increasing numbers ....

Sad thing is, Al created a VERY good game here, which desrves to go big, but the community got hijacked by a Bad-Ass atmosphere, so that most players want, sooner or later, to leave, newbie or vet. So it is in process of dying, no? Especially since the arrogant attitude of vets is "bring 'em on", they're glad to cream the newbies (someone lamented on thew boards that every vet just chooses to smash the newbies, but they ended up doing the same anyway?! 'cos other vets were targetting the poor newbies, so they'd be disadvantaged if they didn't?!).

OK. Ignore this if you think the WOK community has no problem and will be fine.

Think hard if if you are a devotee (one of the last 7?) And don't want the game-community to fold, as it is clearly heading towards. I said about 6 months ago that it was heading for this. And I know why, and what would solve it. I could solve it. But why should I try? Great game, lousy atmosphere compared with akternatives.

Maybe we should delete this thread after a week or two, so that it does not sit there for future newbies if you ever get them. Fine, so long as you face the reality of a community that is close to folding. Hey, I left a while back when I saw how Bad-Ass the community was. Just can't easily say bye-bye 'cos the game itself is good ....Ah, well ....

Hey, do any of you guys want to rescue this game and community, or would you rather score points (in your eyes) and be part of why it dies on you? Let's face it: it's dying; question is whether people will help rescue it or continue (unwittingly?) to kill it.

~ Han

PS. There are lots of threads I glimpsed that I want to comment on. When I have time. No stopping me. Since I stopped playing, and went elsewhere, I have so much less to lose than those who'll be offended !! Soon. It would be relatively easy to fix, but the most loud-mouthed seem to have a death-wish to kill their hobby.

I will be amazingly unamazed when I get only 3 reply-posts, all negative. Your own funeral.

Seriously now, why do you call him Hannibabble?

[Raw]

Seriously now, why do you call him Hannibabble?

You kill me Fredo!

[Saladin]

So why do I bother? Well. I've just read how things are going. It LOOKS like terminal decline for WOK :
1) active players down to about 7, for a 10-player game
2) only about 10 ever post on the boards, and read stuff like this
3) Games don't get filled up - one WOK4 game has been waiting months for players 4-10
4) Games suffer massive drop-out and M-3 as plasyers, both old and new, get disillusioned.
5) Consequently, we don't start games (they won't fill), so, rare starts for games, few GM's, and GM's who know it won't fill to 10 even if they try 6) A casual approach to the game, eg lots of Quit and M-3, such that even the games that run are vitiated (Raw?) and either are spoilt or are paused indefinitely
7) So, few games get started, so that newbies cannot try us unless they have unlimited patience
GM's don't wish to start games, because slots won't fill, so games don't start, so potential newbies look elsewhere and are lost - vicious downward spiral
9) Al understandably loses patience/commitment with his invention, so puts less effort in (NB: that is OUR fault more than his, guys!)

Well i fully agree with Han's summary of the situation here.

So now that we have defined the problem how do we go about solving it?

Well i found that there's no leadership in this community at the moment. A number of people have and are trying their best to improve the game for us (wok-on, wok 5 focus group), but there's nobody to lead them and help them should they need help moving things forward.

So What i think needs to be done:

1. The website needs a navigation make-over. It's impossibly hard to navigate for a newbie. The great thing about the old website was that you could go anywhere with just one click thanks to the nice top menu that was in place.

2. We need a new start page. A simple page that tells people in a couple of lines what wok-on and wok 5 is. So people can tell in one minute if this game is for them and then decide if they want to read Han's great newbie start-up pdf. Right now people come to our first page. See that the last update is from May 10th and don't really see straight away what the game is about...and leave.

3. The news needs to be updated regularly. Al tried to do this by giving us a frequent overview of his gaming activities and he tried to get others to write articles on a regular basis as well. Sadly this didn't get picked up by the other players. I do feel that this is a vital part of the community so i'll be willing to become an editor and make sure that news gets posted on a regular basis.

4. All official pages within the wok universe needs (as Al has said many a time) the same lay-out and make up. Right now there are too many different domains and different styles. Some links don't even work.

5. The Kaobase needs to be cleaned up with all the finished games deleted.

6. New players (and old players that left) need to be recruited again (after point 1-5 have been taken care off).


Now i'd be willing to take care off points 1-4 (with the help from others of course).

Point 5 needs to be done by Al as i think he's the only one with complete access to the old Kaobase.

Point 6 would be spearheaded by Duke with the help of a couple of people.

Now as Han said this really is the hour of need for Kaomaris. We need to get things done now or in a couple of months we'll have nothing left.

So lets get started on these things and build up a strong foundation again for WOK!

[Donut]

I read about 10 lines Han, then went on to the summary from the others. Honestly dude.

I've also seen this coming and have been losing interest. This is mostly because I've joined a couple other games and now am actually employed.

I completely agree with Sal. The other thing that needs to happen is that we need to make the game more fun. I'm curious, would it be possible for players to be able to send orders once a day? For WOK4 I think it's definitely possible... Here's my thinking: n00bs generally spend a lot of time at a new game, in order to learn it and due to the initial excitement. Vets can easily do decent orders in 5-10 minutes. Decreasing lead-time (haha... I'm an engineer, I get to use big words too ) would increase some excitement.

The thing with this is that I think it would decrease teamwork for those in different time-zones/different internet access habits. But, I assume that everyone checks the site at least once a day (Duke?) and would be able to send orders.

As for the home page.
www.agesofwar.com
games.swirve.com/utopia/

These are the two games that I've started. Their homepages tell you exactly what they are all about, and give members easy access to the entire page. I was a big proponent of making all pages the same format, which is why all of my pages are pretty close to each other, but they are still outside of the main WOK site. All official sites need to be in the frame of the page. This will probably take Korexus, or someone else with knowledge of php to do it.

Lets kick the tires and light the fires.

[Duke]

(haha... I'm an engineer, I get to use big words too ) wo

lead-time?
decent?
initial?

Where are the big words D.?

I am with you on your suggestions though.

[Underdog]

OK just for giggles I will put forth my 2 cents.

I tend to agree with much of what Han says but, This is a seasonal thing with Wok that from my experience has happened every summer but 1. I have no idea why about 2 years ago it didn't slow down much over the summer but Wok almost ALWAYS has a big decline during the summer months. too many other things going on and players just seem to disappear for awhile but usually most of them return with the start of school and cooler weather. Most of the other points I agree with but I will wait until September to decide whether Wok is DYING.

[Lord Fredo]

Good point UD. One thing that is dead or at least down since yesterday is Kaobase.

[phred]

7 people have replied to Hannibal's original post. This says something. Coincidence? Prescient abilities? Hire that man!!!!

[Duke]

That is what I say but one problem being that the man has gone AWOL.

[Hannibal]

Hi guys!

Just back on a flying visit, after about 8 weeks. I was even vaguely thinking I might just join a game, or GM one again -- I had this flash of an idea for a fast 5-player X-game with a twist. Oh well.

As for the other things ... Han, can you state in a short, simple format what you think will "save the world" of Kaomaris? I don't remember your solution(s) being presented before, but it may have been in one of your longer posts and was swallowed up by all the wrap-around content and atmosphere.

-Bryk

Gee, since you ask so nicely, how could I possibly refuse?

I've scribbled down 29 action points. Action, not analysis. I know the difference from my past career as an advertising guru, strategist and adviser.
I've come up with 7 on site and navigation, 11 on recruitment, 9 on retention, and 4 on etiquette/atmosphere.

I doubt I could set them out briefly enough for those of you with short attention-spans! So I don't feel motivated to bother trying. It would only attract unpleasant replies. And that already makes 10 or 11 lines, already too long for my detractors!

[Hannibal]

Bug*er it! I spent 30 mins brainstorming some good action-options, so it would be a shame to waste them. And the negatives among you would think my claimed scribbled list is just invented puffery. And I like the sound of my own voice, and my ideas are good, and I'm insomniac tonight....So here as many of my 29 action-points as I can fit in before I think the 10 of you will get bored ....

1) You need a "HOW TO JOIN IN" button in the main menu. (In my pdf explaining the game [New Visitors Look Here], the instructions at the end on how to join, in are now wrong, since you improved the main menu and removed the "MY LOBBY" that I told them to look for high on the left of the home page ....). You need the simple "Join" button as well as something explaining the game such as my pdf.

2) Ideally a prominent Guestbook for visitor comments. Not only to hear what's putting them off joining in (therefore what to address); not only to be able to recontact them to invite them in; but also to gauge whether you are in fact getting any real visitor traffic, as opposed to just current players looking in without logging on .....

3) You need more posts, from more people, to make the site look more active and alive. And, longer and more explanatory posts are better for visitors than short, knocking ones. Stop thinking in terms of only what current players will prefer...

4) You should kill or hide the chatroom. Being seen to be empty, it just makes the community look dead.

ENOUGH. Too long a post for some already.