Update: WOK5 V3.30.6 released !!

[gm_al]

The best WOK5 ever ?

Changelog:

* initial spell calculation of Players no longer possible
* penalty of not paying troops increased to -12% EFF
* chances to hit DEF with a missile (at short range) reduced to EFF -20%

Tribe changes:
* Mbakku effect reduced to decrease unit upgrade costs by 1/3 instead of 1/2 (and rounded correctly)
* Quipee effect changed - Quipee will now allow you to teleport your troops TWO tech levels earlier if the option "teleport" was enabled by the GM (!!)

All changes have been tested carefully as usual (QA means a lot to me as you should know). Manual has been updated online and can now also be downloaded as smaller zip Word document (http://www.kaomaris.com/wok5manual.zip)

Once again... ENJOY.

PS: some of the changes have been smoothened to a certain degree to let WOK5 still be a game with an emphasis on OFFENSE. The latest changes regarding tribe-hopping and teleporting should make things even more fun for you all out there.

[Dameon]

Upping the army upkeep penalty without reducing the costs? Ouch. As TK pointed out armies are expensive enough to upkeep as it is! Oh well, I guess it's a good way to promote the Hobgob and new upkeep-reducing tribal bonuses. At least the Quippee bonus is a little better than what it was, provided that the GM does have the teleport option active. I can't recall ever being in a WOK 5 game without it active on at least some level, though, so s'all good.

[Allister Fiend]

Duke's group 4 had no teleport and it sucked.... once you were too big, there wasn't enough movements orders available to keep yourself defended..

I blame this option on me not winning part of that game.

[TK]

* penalty of not paying troops increased to -12% EFF

2% change?

Not enough. Workers can easily make EFF. How about the armies taking all the gold in stock, even if it is not enough? This messes up spell plans and tech upgrades - a long term punishment.

And why not reduce the costs as suggested? It is only one number in the manager. I guess I will continue to not pay my troops.... 2% EFF will not change my plans.

* chances to hit DEF with a missile (at short range) reduced to EFF -20%

Not enough. Again. Now it take 12-13 GCAs to reduce a home province DEF to that of a neutral, instead of 10. 30-40 was the suggested level.

* Mbakku effect reduced to decrease unit upgrade costs by 1/3 instead of 1/2 (and rounded correctly)

Hard to say (let the future decide...), but in my opinion - not enough. This is still a massively powerful tribe.



This is all very infuriating. I spent a lot of time making sensible suggestions so that the numbers would work. You have changed them to such small amounts that the effect on the game will be almost nothing.

Why ask for suggestions if you will not listen?

Next time my suggestions will use very high numbers so that when you reduce them, they might be useful.

Even more infuriating is that I know that WOK5 will not be updated for another 2 years.

[korexus]

* penalty of not paying troops increased to -12% EFF

2% change?

Not enough. Workers can easily make EFF. How about the armies taking all the gold in stock, even if it is not enough? This messes up spell plans and tech upgrades - a long term punishment.

And why not reduce the costs as suggested? It is only one number in the manager. I guess I will continue to not pay my troops.... 2% EFF will not change my plans.

I like the take all gold idea. -It brings paying troops into line with feeding people. It might throw the entire game balance though, it'd need testing first...

* chances to hit DEF with a missile (at short range) reduced to EFF -20%

Not enough. Again. Now it take 12-13 GCAs to reduce a home province DEF to that of a neutral, instead of 10. 30-40 was the suggested level.

We don't want to make DEF too powerful though. Bear in mind that, now 10 and 20 fingers are gone, no one can GCA a home province till turn 3 anyway. 40 GCAs is too much to kill 1.0 DEF imho, making GCAs less powerful is fine at the beginning of a game, but we don't want to overpower DEF at the end...

* Mbakku effect reduced to decrease unit upgrade costs by 1/3 instead of 1/2 (and rounded correctly)

Hard to say (let the future decide...), but in my opinion - not enough. This is still a massively powerful tribe.

I'd also say it's not enough, but then, we'll always prefer our own suggestions, won't we?

[gm_al]

What is this ? TK taking over the "whiner of the year" spot from Nick ??

First of all Im not listening to big talking or even disguised threats. A suggestion that I dont esteem feasible for the overall balance of the game doesnt get any better just because you keep repeating it, so save yourself some energy there. Apart from being bad (business) manor to only point out stuff you DONT like personally you should understand that a game thats basically working will react very sensible to dramatic changes, so its better to take things step by step and wait for some feedback on them.

Regarding troops maintenance costs Im going to point this out one last time - check the updated Selfter tribe ability (from V3.30.5) and how well it fits into the picture.

Regarding DEF killing with missiles - again, the emphasis is on OFFENSIVE gameplay. With an average of 80% EFF the (EFF - 20%) short-range chance to hit DEF is just right now. Point.

Mbakku (and other tribal changes): its not about nerfing a Tribe to the point that it doesnt make sense to use it anymore, its rather a matter to balance it CAREFULLY so that the players have a hard time hopping to the right one in time and use it for the best amount of Turns.

WOK5 will have no more updates for 2 years ? We shall see, but we get to a better game with every new step. And no words from you on the teleport changes TK.... not good enough ? Ah well.

[BigJOzzy]

I have to agree with AL here, if too big of changes are made it will over balance the game and change it from what we are use to. Besides I think most of the changes will be usefull to all and should be given a good testing before making judgements.

Massielita

[Dameon]

Y'know I think that both the GCA/DEF changes and the Mbakku changes are fine. If you reduce the Mbakku bonus much more it's going to get the point where it's simply not worth using the tribe. As for the DEF, as Korexus pointed out you shouldn't need 40 GCAs to take a home province! If you reduce it much more WOK will become more defensive, something we do want to avoid remember? I also agree if you make the troop maintenance penalty more severe without reducing the cost to upkeep them you could potentially unbalance the entire game, especially later on.

And overall the tribal changes are moving in the right direction. I'm not happy with all of the bonuses, but as I said to Al in my mail about 80% are where we need them to be, if not more after these last updates. AL, I think a lot of the frustration from folks like TK and myself come from the fact that you rarely play and never GM WOK 5 games, so it's like you are just making changes from the sidelines without ever really experiencing them. Sure, you are the creator, but there's been so many changes since WOK 5's inception when you were an active player that it's really hard to be able to mandate changes when you really don't have to live with them. For the record, I think almost all the changes that have been made are positive, and I think you do a great job overall. I do wish the updates were a bit more frequent and that you maybe came up with some kind of "focus group" of active WOK 5 players to bounce ideas off of, but overall you do good work with the updates.

[gm_al]

Well... thanks Nick, you sure look to get rid of that whiner title it seems

True I rarely play any WOK games at all lately, I just cant assure Ill be able to put in orders on a regular basis right now. Hell I didnt even manage to finish my last WOK4 game due to lack of time. However Im looking forward to play WOK-ON a lot with everyone, to make sure it gets rolling fine and can take over from the old WOK4 as we knew it so far.

WOK5 focus group sounds like a good idea, except that we all know the bunch of WOK5 addicts anyways.

My intention is not to stand outside of the game and just throw in some updates that MIGHT work from time to time. In fact I take changes quite seriously, testing them with many many testruns before releasing them. A good idea would be to collect feedback from GMs and players on a regular basis about everything they witness and endure, what they liked and what they think should still be changed (and why). Everyone is invited to give me that kind of feedback and then Ill promise to work on WOK5 whenever needed and time allows it.

[TK]

What is this ? TK taking over the "whiner of the year" spot from Nick ??

Be reasonable, Al.

-You asked for suggestions.
-I gave suggestions (which Korexus and I spent some time thinking about).
-You completely changed those suggestions and implemented some random numbers which you pulled from thin air.

...and if I am not happy about that, I am a whiner?! Come on.

First of all Im not listening to big talking or even disguised threats.

Threats? I dont know what you are talking about here.

...its better to take things step by step and wait for some feedback on them.

I would usually agree, but with WOK5 it has been at least a year since any updates. If you agree to continually improve WOK5, then I will agree that small changes are best.

Regarding troops maintenance costs Im going to point this out one last time - check the updated Selfter tribe ability (from V3.30.5) and how well it fits into the picture.

Regarding troops maintenance costs Im going to point this out one last time - good players will not spend 1000+ gold to pay their troops when instead they can simply put one province on +EFF and cover the penalty. Who needs Selfter when *you dont have to pay*?

Regarding DEF killing with missiles - again, the emphasis is on OFFENSIVE gameplay. With an average of 80% EFF the (EFF - 20%) short-range chance to hit DEF is just right now. Point.

Nick's last post was right on the button. When was the last time you saw a WOK5 turn report Al? Anyone who plays any WOK game with an average EFF of 80% is gonna die. Fast. The "average EFF" is more like 95%. That means 3 GCAs in 4 will still hit DEF. That means 15 GCAs will still reduce a home province to rubble. Dont you agree that home province status should MEAN something?? Perhaps 40 GCAs is too high, but 25-30 should be the minimum for annihilating a HOME PROVINCE!

Mbakku (and other tribal changes): its not about nerfing a Tribe to the point that it doesnt make sense to use it anymore, its rather a matter to balance it CAREFULLY so that the players have a hard time hopping to the right one in time and use it for the best amount of Turns.

I agree. My previous comment was that its "hard to say" what will happen with Mbakku. I hope I am wrong and that it becomes a balanced tribe (currently, it is not).

And no words from you on the teleport changes TK.... not good enough ? Ah well.

And no words from you on the MRES worker aim, or loss of gold if troops are not paid, Al.... not good enough ? Ah well.

Not easy enough to implement using a random-number system?


The truth is, I am just not sure about the teleport-tribe changes. I was going to think about them more before I commented. Is that OK?

Having thought about them, I dont think I will ever use the teleport tribe. If I am small, I dont need teleport. If I am big, I will (usually) have reached the tech level requirement, because GMs have a bad habit of making it too easy to achieve teleport.

A tribe which ALWAYS allowed teleport would be very nice (but more susceptible to TRIBETURNER than most others). Thoughts? Easy movement, but no EFF/upgrade/magic bonus.


TK

[Undertaker]

I am a whinger?!

Don't tell me you actually listen to Winger?!

Allister Fiend must have got you into them.

[Undertaker]

Regarding troops maintenance costs Im going to point this out one last time - good players will not spend 1000+ gold to pay their troops when instead thay can simply put one province on +EFF and cover the penalty. Who needs Selfter when *you dont have to pay*?

Yep.

[gm_al]

Trying to understand the english humour and usual sarcasm...

Troops maintenance: I see your point (saw it before mind you) but not every game is like the other. Maybe somebody has an army low in numbers but highly trained and does NOT pay 1000 gold each turn ? The tribe change just provides an ALTERNATIVE to putting workers on EFF so they can get back the EFF hit taken from not paying maintenace. Again this is very situational, so there will be uses for that Tribe. Not everybody plays every game after the same scheme.

Missiles and DEF: fact is it now takes you at least to Turn#3 to missile someone else's home province, time for the other player to build it up even more. By the time you get a shot at it it will take you 30-40 missiles to achieve your goal and again, this is just ONE of the situations that can arise. Think about all the other times you might want to hit DEF before attacking a stronghold - this has just gotten a bit harder, A BIT and not IMPOSSIBLY hard. Pushing DEF up all the way to be very hard to kill might have been proven good for the initial province but would be a game breaker for many other situations. Stop thinking about the ONE case and try thinking about ALL the possible cases and you will see that what might look like a good change can turn out bad in many other situations.

The 80% estimation for EFF is a long-term value, you cant count on having 95% EFF throughout an entire game (and the other players will try to stop you from having it).

MRES as worker aim: sorry, no. Enough burden on the workers already.

Loss of gold if troops are not paid: way too drastic change. It can happen that you are "forced" into not being able to pay maintenance - to lose all your gold is imho way too strong. The -12% EFF hit should do just fine and will not cripple you financially for the next turn(s).

New teleport tribe: it can be a big advantage to have teleport in mid-game, thats why the Tribe gives it to you 2 tech levels earlier. Will it be used to some extent ? I hope so. Will it be changed/tweaked in the future ? Lets hear feedback from the players first.

[korexus]

Troops maintenance: I see your point (saw it before mind you) but not every game is like the other. Maybe somebody has an army low in numbers but highly trained and does NOT pay 1000 gold each turn ? The tribe change just provides an ALTERNATIVE to putting workers on EFF so they can get back the EFF hit taken from not paying maintenace. Again this is very situational, so there will be uses for that Tribe. Not everybody plays every game after the same scheme.

It may be different now, since M'bakku changed, but up until this point, but recently it has certianly been the case that big armies were the way to go. In my Gridgematch game, Xarfei was M'bakku and simple made and upgraded 45 troops every turn. When he finally came to fight Validon, he was using 200+ troops with a PATT of 80 or so. There's no way a small group of leveled troops would stand up to that. as I said, this may be different now that M'bakku has been down powered and TK's suggestion may well unbalance the game, but I'm not sure the issue has been solved yet...

Missiles and DEF: fact is it now takes you at least to Turn#3 to missile someone else's home province, time for the other player to build it up even more. By the time you get a shot at it it will take you 30-40 missiles to achieve your goal and again, this is just ONE of the situations that can arise. Think about all the other times you might want to hit DEF before attacking a stronghold - this has just gotten a bit harder, A BIT and not IMPOSSIBLY hard. Pushing DEF up all the way to be very hard to kill might have been proven good for the initial province but would be a game breaker for many other situations. Stop thinking about the ONE case and try thinking about ALL the possible cases and you will see that what might look like a good change can turn out bad in many other situations.

The 80% estimation for EFF is a long-term value, you cant count on having 95% EFF throughout an entire game (and the other players will try to stop you from having it).

If I were to put a number on it, I'd say that 20 GCAs should take out a decent amount of DEF, this isn't just for taking out home provinces, also for giving a hand with later neutrals. Yes 20 GCAs aren't too hard to make, but any GCAs you send at DEF can't be sent at troops or your opponents GCAs and if you wipe out the DEF of a province before you take it, you can't use that DEF yourself later on...

One other idea which came up while TK and I were talking was increasing the starting DEF for home provinces. - I just thought I'd throw that into the mix...

New teleport tribe: it can be a big advantage to have teleport in mid-game, thats why the Tribe gives it to you 2 tech levels earlier. Will it be used to some extent ? I hope so. Will it be changed/tweaked in the future ? Lets hear feedback from the players first.

The use is limited, but there's nothing wrong with that. In a game with a high teleport level this tribe would have potential, however in most games, players raise tech until they reach teleport anyway. If teleport was tech level 12 (higher than most games) would you use Selfter long term, with the huge threat a tribe turner would pose to you and the fact that you had no other tribe bonus, just to save 920 gold and a bit of corn?

TK is frustrated because we've spent many hours talking about how WoK 5 could be improved, as you weren't there you maybe can't see where some of the ideas came from. Perhaps we should have some sort of discussion group. -I certainly would be willing to talk over and playtest new changes before they are released as official, I'm sure some other players would too. When it comes to making a decision the more people you have the worse chance you have, but if you want to look for possible flaws in an upgrade idea 5 or so experienced WoK V players could probably find any in short order...


korexus.

[Dameon]

I really think the focus group idea has legs, Al. Pick maybe five experienced WOK 5 players who have shown interest in helping balance and improve WOK 5 further, and let us be your sounding board. You could both run any suggested changes through the focus group before finalizing them and let us come to you with suggestions as well. I understand WOK 5 is your baby, ultimately, but you said it yourself; you don't have time to play anymore. Therefore, you can never really experience what's going on in a WOK 5 game, the way a lot of us vets do pretty frequently still.

I am disappointed that my tribe suggestion changes were sent along the lines of six months ago and didn't come to fruition until today. I know you are busy, but if you let the focus group suggest and test changes (I am willing to bet Korexus would be able to do test coding when it comes down to it no?) that takes a lot of the burden off of you, and we'll end up with more frequent updates. Of course all final changes would have to be approved by you, but letting a focus group of active players do the legwork, as it were, couldn't be a bad thing could it? Then we avoid arguments like this on the board, and WOK 5 could become even more balanced than ever before. Ever since the inception of the tribes we really haven't seen a fully balanced game, and there are so many tribal variables that it will take time and effort to get them all right.

I know that folks like TK, Korexus, and myself are all willing to put the time and effort into doing this as long as we had some kind of assurances from you that if we came up with changes, tested them, and asked for general input from the WOK community you would actually allow them to be implemented on a regular basis. This takes a lot of the responsibility off of you and allows you to focus on other things as you have been doing anyway, but still allows WOK 5 to improve and change over time.

What do you say?

[Undertaker]

Trying to understand the english humour and usual sarcasm...

But I'm not English...



Just curious, does anyone use level anymore? Obviously not if no one is paying their troops.

[Donut]

Amazing how much I'm learning from this thread...

Donut

[Dameon]

Just curious, does anyone use level anymore? Obviously not if no one is paying their troops.

Be serious. The +LVL command went out of style when Al cut its strength in half about the same time he increased the power of upgraded units. It's nice to have extra level for troops, sure, but that's gained mainly through combat and taking undefended provinces now.

[Undertaker]

Just curious, does anyone use level anymore? Obviously not if no one is paying their troops.

Be serious. The +LVL command went out of style when Al cut its strength in half about the same time he increased the power of upgraded units. It's nice to have extra level for troops, sure, but that's gained mainly through combat and taking undefended provinces now.

I think we're teaching them too much. And some do use LEV, I see it when I GM.

[Donut]

Don't stop on my account... discuss, discuss...

Speaking of WOK 5... anyone thinking about opening a game? Eh? Eh? I'm only wondering cause I think the changes need to be tested out

Donut