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Post by Donut » Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:55 am

Anyone elses Population growing uncontrollably?

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Post by Hamster » Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:47 am

Donut wrote:Anyone elses Population growing uncontrollably?
- What do you mean by uncontrollably?

- What's your fertility? If you pumped it up it will drop slowly only 2% per cycle resulting in huge growth.
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Post by Underdog » Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:00 pm

Pretty much I'm pretty sure thats what he did. I had gotten into trouble about a week ago when I missed almost a full day and starved my species almost too far down but when I pumped up my fertility I stopped at about 25% to keep it from doing just that. Now I am back to respectability but it took an awfully long time to get there. now I just have to get some more mutations and I will be set. The only problem I have is I will be away from home all next week and I'm not sure I can get access to the net to keep up with these guys so it was probably a waste of time. I will most likely die off during that time. Oh well maybe I will get lucky and find a way to keep them alive for that long. Boy would it be nice to HIBERNATE for a week while on vacation.

Anyone up for suspending the game for a week starting This coming Friday?
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Post by Donut » Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:50 pm

Just out of curiosity... what are the incompatible foods? Plants of the same color or other species of the same color, I thought it was just species :(

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Post by Mullog » Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:16 am

The incompatible foods are both plants and species of your color. The Indifference skill will help you a bit, or you can change color if you want to eat plants of your own color.

If you are interested in pausing the game, you just have to ask the gm (Al) to do it. He has a big&shiny pause button just for that purpose. :)
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Post by Donut » Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:56 pm

Underdog wrote:Anyone up for suspending the game for a week starting This coming Friday?
Judging by our encounter this morning... I don't think it'll last that long :P

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Post by Donut » Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:38 am

Questions:

1. Is there a reaction behavior that attacks back? If there is I would assume it's react, but I've never tried that reaction.

2. Has there ever been a RIP bonus discussed? I think it'd be nice :)

3. I still think that arms and legs don't give enough benefit. What if the effects of mutating them grew exponentially. I find it hard to believe that players will be able to gain many more than 2 arms and legs, simply because it would take too much time in a short game (Assuming the average game goes 3000 turns). I don't think that the benefits are worth spending the time trying to gain 1 when you most likely have a large population to feed.

4. Why are non Omnivorous species not allowed to attack? I vaguely remember a discussion over it but I don't remember why it came about. I don't think that they should be banned from attacking, just a lower PATT.

5. I think that the player v. player fighting should be looked at. I think that the number of specimen a player has should affect PATT and PDEF. When I outnumber a species at least 2-1... I find it hard to believe that they could attack successfully... and Vice-Versa.

6. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but... The only reason I was able to have my species grow like crazy, develop them, and have almost the entire map revealed to me was that I spent A LOT of time playing and planning. I don't think that I left my species without orders for more than 4 hours at any point up until now. If I were to have left it alone for a weekend, even at my peak, I would have died. Theres no way around it. I know I suggested it earlier that maybe games be paused for a weekend, I believe that this would be the easiest way to do it, but I still have problems having orders for my species 24 hours a day during the week. I just happen to be lucky... yea, I guess I'll use lucky (but loosely)... that I get up at 5am for work, which just happens to be when a cycle turns, I also get off right as a cycle is run.

I know you don't want it Al, and I understand why, but I think that some sort of way needs to be developed so that players don't need to spend 24/7 for a month thinking about their species. The first thing I would say is extend the turns back to 15 minutes. All those "I need results immediately" people are out of the game now. :P

Anything I forgot? Probably.

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Post by Mullog » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:10 am

Donut wrote:Questions:
1. Is there a reaction behavior that attacks back? If there is I would assume it's react, but I've never tried that reaction.
React is the one used to fight back. It can be somewhat risky to use though. For it can trigger a chain of attacks if both attacker and target use the react behaviour. The attacks will not end before one species is killed or changes behaviour.
We should look at this I think, for it makes the react behaviour too risky to use IMO.
Donut wrote: 2. Has there ever been a RIP bonus discussed? I think it'd be nice :)
What do you mean by a RIP bonus? Some nice effect that occurs when you hunt all specimens of a species? That could be somewhat difficult, for we come back to the never-ending discussion about who killed who? The one that hunted 99% of the specimens or Donut that killed that last one?
Still, it is an interesting thought. Did you have a specific bonus in mind?
Donut wrote: 3. I still think that arms and legs don't give enough benefit. What if the effects of mutating them grew exponentially. I find it hard to believe that players will be able to gain many more than 2 arms and legs, simply because it would take too much time in a short game (Assuming the average game goes 3000 turns). I don't think that the benefits are worth spending the time trying to gain 1 when you most likely have a large population to feed.
I think this is part of the balance of the game. If you build up a large herd you cannot spend too much time buying mutations and such. With a small herd you can focus on enhancing your species, but you may be at risk when someone attacks you.
I also think the benefits are quite good. Arms increase your attack and defense rolls alot, making it easier to hunt for food, while legs increase your defense rolls and make you move faster, so they will help you survive longer. Maybe we should increase the effect they have, but we should not make them too powerful either.

Donut wrote: 4. Why are non Omnivorous species not allowed to attack? I vaguely remember a discussion over it but I don't remember why it came about. I don't think that they should be banned from attacking, just a lower PATT.
Omnis ARE allowed to attack. Have you had a problem with this? If so, you may have found a bug. Remember that you cannot eat species of your own color, so that might be an explanation. Omnis are allowed to attack, but they are not able to digest meat as good as carnivores are.

Donut wrote: 5. I think that the player v. player fighting should be looked at. I think that the number of specimen a player has should affect PATT and PDEF. When I outnumber a species at least 2-1... I find it hard to believe that they could attack successfully... and Vice-Versa.
Your number of specimens determine how many attacks you have, so although they are able to fight back, you will do much more damage than they can.
Did you not watch the Lord of the Rings movies and read the books? A few warriors can easily fight of ten times their number! So why should not some tough species fight of a horde of whimpy ones? 8)

Donut wrote: 6. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but... The only reason I was able to have my species grow like crazy, develop them, and have almost the entire map revealed to me was that I spent A LOT of time playing and planning. I don't think that I left my species without orders for more than 4 hours at any point up until now. If I were to have left it alone for a weekend, even at my peak, I would have died. Theres no way around it. I know I suggested it earlier that maybe games be paused for a weekend, I believe that this would be the easiest way to do it, but I still have problems having orders for my species 24 hours a day during the week. I just happen to be lucky... yea, I guess I'll use lucky (but loosely)... that I get up at 5am for work, which just happens to be when a cycle turns, I also get off right as a cycle is run.

I know you don't want it Al, and I understand why, but I think that some sort of way needs to be developed so that players don't need to spend 24/7 for a month thinking about their species. The first thing I would say is extend the turns back to 15 minutes. All those "I need results immediately" people are out of the game now. :P
This IS a problem. Especially as long as we have 10-minute turns. The game got too hectic for me, so I had to let my poor wildcats starve. I guess we should try a game with 15-minute turns and see how it plays. If the game still requires too much attention, we may have to look at other options.

It is interesting that you of all people are the one spending so much time playing. Were you not going to try how it was to play Species when you had to leave them alone for hours?

How does the game play now, btw? Is it playable and enjoyable or is it dull and annoying?
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Post by gm_al » Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:31 am

Seems a few explanations on my part are needed, so here we go:

1. REACT triggers just what you said, an attack back against the aggressor. Its risky, yes, as this can cause a "fight to the death" if both sides have enabled it. I still like it the way it is. :P
2. No RIP bonus here. Im not even starting that discussion again.... pleeeease....
3. I think the ARM/LEG balance is quite good right now. And dont underestimate the number of mutations that happen - last time I checked I saw a species with Brain Power 5 (!!) in the game
4. You got that wrong Rune, he was referring to NON-omnivores. Those are indeed not able to attack other species. Which makes perfect sense to me and increases the pressure once the first species turn omnivore in the jungle
5. the number of specimens has a direct impact on the fight between players. Its in there, its just not always clearly distinguishable, especially when the numbers on both sides are similar
6. right now I see our betas as SPEED games. Once we get back to 15-minutes turns the pressure to monitor your species will considerably be lessened. FLYING is meant to help too, but maybe we have to make it more easily available. Just beware that any mechanic that would allow a player to hibernate over an extended period is contraproductive to the game and might easily be exploited.

I have a few more changes planned that should make the game even more interesting. In the meantime Rune is rewriting the engine so that the server load is reduced dramatically. Thanks to all that help the testings !

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Post by Hamster » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:50 am

gm_al wrote:Just beware that any mechanic that would allow a player to hibernate over an extended period is contraproductive to the game and might easily be exploited.
True if short periods are allowed. But in a game where other develop while you misuse 'hybernate' - you don't have much advantage of it. The shortest period that fall on my mind is at least a whole cycle. Unpausing is only possible at cycles, so when you unpause the next cycle will actiually make you play further.

Implementation should be easy:
- When someone chooses puse - it pauses in next turn change code.
- in cycles code all paused species become an unpause button.
- in cycles code all species in unpause mode become actually unpaused.

During 'hybernate' you can't be listed on the score so it's impossible to raise a score and freeze it till the game end.
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Post by gm_al » Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:54 pm

Just to give you some examples of why I think this "pause" stuff or hibernation isnt good:
- a species near extinction that is being hunted down goes into "pause" mode and avoids being killed (and therefore deprives the hunter of food he needs)
- a hiscore leader with a big lead in score that is in danger of being attacked by several small enemies goes into hibernation mode a few cycles before the end of the game. His enemies have to look for other targets and he only returns shortly before the game ends....

etc. etc.

Its not about the implementation of such a mode - its about being an exploitable mechanic.

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Post by Hamster » Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:20 pm

gm_al wrote:Just to give you some examples of why I think this "pause" stuff or hibernation isnt good:
- a species near extinction that is being hunted down goes into "pause" mode and avoids being killed (and therefore deprives the hunter of food he needs)
Not a big deal - no RIP bonus is planned and the food you will get from a species is less interesting than the food from plants (IMHO making the carnivore not an interesting option).
gm_al wrote: - a hiscore leader with a big lead in score that is in danger of being attacked by several small enemies goes into hibernation mode a few cycles before the end of the game. His enemies have to look for other targets and he only returns shortly before the game ends....
Forgot to highlight in the above theory that unpausing is possible only 1 cycle before game end, but you can also make it forced to 2, 3, or more...
gm_al wrote: Its not about the implementation of such a mode - its about being an exploitable mechanic
I really can't speak of 'exploitable mechanic' because never had a chance to find any in a well developed systems (read: systems that don't use strange programing code and techniques). The 1st time I managed to find some is in this game - and its because of the inproper use of speciesID in POST/GET methods (such things shoud be kept in sessions). But more of it some later time... :D
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Post by Mullog » Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:09 pm

Hamster wrote: I really can't speak of 'exploitable mechanic' because never had a chance to find any in a well developed systems (read: systems that don't use strange programing code and techniques). The 1st time I managed to find some is in this game - and its because of the inproper use of speciesID in POST/GET methods (such things shoud be kept in sessions). But more of it some later time... :D
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here, but I think you may have found a bug. You are not supposed to be able to look at another players species if that is what you have done. There are some known holes, and probably several unknown ones, so please let me know if you find any!

You are right that some information should be kept in session variables, but having them in the url makes testing much easier. But what did you find?
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Post by Hamster » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:25 pm

How can an 'Hybernate/Unhybernate' button be exploited? It can if you post another information with it. A simple speciesID as a parameter can be missused if not well implemented, I agree.
Mullog wrote:There are some known holes
Tell me which ones are known so I can tell you the rest :D

J/K. I already said enough information for you, even for more conclusions where are the possible holes than I know for. If you put a speciesID out of a session, than a check must be made every time the parameter is used. Just look all of your php files and check if every one has a test-code for a possible missuse.
Last edited by Hamster on Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by korexus » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:07 am

Al, do you have something personal against hibernate or is it just the possibility of exploitation?

If the former, I'll give up (for now) and try to think of something else. If the latter then hopefully you'd accept a system which wasn't easily abused.

Now with the combined brain power the species dev team (every man of us a certified genius - or may just certified!) I'm sure we can come up with something like that! :wink:

*Prods Goat Herder* c'mon we need help with numbers.

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Post by Hamster » Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:13 pm

Donut wrote:Anyone elses Population growing uncontrollably?
I fixed your problem - and Underdog's too :sniper:
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Post by Donut » Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:50 pm

I fixed that problem myself quite some time ago... when I starved my species in half.

Onto another suggestion. I know I'm guilty of this just as bad, but I think it should be looked at.

I would suggest a maximum player-player attack per cycle. A few turn ago I eliminated Malik while I'm sure he was away. Hamster has just nearly eliminated me, and from the sounds of it Underdog. The only thing that stopped him was his good will (I think) There was nothing that I could do about it. And there is nothing that you can do about a player who is attacking you and is doing it actively. If they pay attention to the player they are attacking then then the reactions are seemingly inadequate. I think that this goes the difference in time zones and when people have free time. Had Hamster waited 2 hours I'd probably have been able to fight back, but why would he wait for that (Good will again?).

Maybe a maximum attack per cycle isn't the way to go but it's disheartening to say the least.

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Post by Hamster » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:51 pm

I noticed that attacking 50 species results on making significant less kills than attacking 100 or 200 species - like 10% - tested on 2 players. Maybe it should be much bigger difference, so trying to kill all species needs 5 - 10 turns, making this option wasting moves for attackers...
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Post by gm_al » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:21 am

Hamster Im sure you are referring to SPECIMENS and not SPECIES in your post.

The current balance is such that two totally equal species (same powers, same number of specimens etc.) will need an average of 8 Turns to kill the other. Considering that you can react in many ways (flee, attack back, change color) this can result in quite longish battles. Nevertheless the idea of maximum attacks per cycle should be looked at, but Im not sure on how this would slow down the whole game.

One of the main stressers in all this are the 10 minutes turns right now. Ive repeatedly said that 15 minutes was meant to be the standard time for games, and thats just what we will start testing soon - expect a new post from me shortly.

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Post by Hamster » Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:02 am

gm_al wrote:Hamster Im sure you are referring to SPECIMENS and not SPECIES in your post.
Yup.

gm_al wrote:One of the main stressers in all this are the 10 minutes turns right now. Ive repeatedly said that 15 minutes was meant to be the standard time for games, and thats just what we will start testing soon - expect a new post from me shortly.
The problem will not go away with changing the time between turns. Its a problem of current design of the game that if someone tries to kill you - he will easily do it till the end. All the kills on me and my kills on others were done when the attacked player was away - I had like 10-15 kills (mostly on me) and only once I had a fight with an online player - which only resulted in more turns to finish the work - but the end wasn't avoided.

Try to look on the problem in this lights - how to prevent being eaten (not turn/attack wise, but attempt wise).
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