°° AMAZONAS (beta jungle) °° Things I found out

News, discussions and gossip around WOK SPECIES.

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ThinKing
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Post by ThinKing » Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:47 pm

gm_al wrote:Little extra [food]? How do you know ? You might be in for some surprises. And that little extra might come in handy in case all plants have been eaten up, no ? :roll:


Al,
I know how much extra food I will get if I do that. I was trying not to give the secrets away. I thought you would appreciate that. :roll:

And all plants being eaten?? I see over 150,000 on the map now!! 50% growth already??


gm_al wrote:They dont necessarily need to [go out attacking], in fact a herbivore COULD also win the game - whats wrong with that ?


Nothing at all, in principle. But if the best strategy is to sit in 1-2 squares and eat plants for the entire game, it will become a very boring game.


gm_al wrote:But maybe, just maybe, the small ones will gang up on the hiscore leader, dont you think ? :roll:


You think herbivores will pay to become omnivores just to stop *one* person from being the score leader? What about the other 10 people that may also be higher? Going omnivore will not allow you to hunt down and kill all of them!

The only reason for being omnivore is that if you are NOT one, then omnivores can kill you all too easily. It is BAD PLAY for them to do so (because they could make much more profit by eating plants), but that wont make you feel any better when all your specimens are dead.


gm_al wrote:Bad mood today, TK ?? I know at least TWO strategies to avoid my ennemies early on. One has already been stated by GH, check the threads. Bank 14 Turns and you will be safe for few hours extra.... (and I wont mention the other strategy)


Sorry, but that "strategy" is no good. Why? Because the omnivore can also have turns banked!! If you use banked turns to flee or change colour, they can do exactly the same!! Perhaps if the flee action was cheaper than normal movement...?

I am willing to bet (VPs? :wink: ) that your other idea for safety can be overcome too.


gm_al wrote:How about... constructive criticism ? new strategies to share ? :twisted:


I am trying to identify current problems. I will not offer solutions until you agree that they are problems (if I do, I am wasting my time!). For example, if you agree that the omnivore ability is far too powerful early on, then I will try to think of ways to change that. I will not spend time thinking of solutions when you deny that there is a problem! :roll:

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Post by gm_al » Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:15 pm

Im sorry TK, but you are leaning a bit too much out of the window right now.

I know how much extra food I will get if I do that. I was trying not to give the secrets away. I thought you would appreciate that. And all plants being eaten?? I see over 150,000 on the map now!! 50% growth already??

How do you know ?? You cant if you didnt reaad the manual the devs have (and are not allowed to share I might add) Maybe you are talking about something different then I am ? OMNIVORE is not the end, you know....
150.000 plants - thats BETA, remember ? We did an extra cycle etc. and also have only 30 species in the jungle. I doubt the number would be the same with 50 Players and correctly ran turns.

Nothing at all, in principle. But if the best strategy is to sit in 1-2 squares and eat plants for the entire game, it will become a very boring game.

Cmon TK, you can do better then that. Thats a pretty stoopid assumption, isnt it ? I doubt you can sit in 1-2 squares for 4000 Turns and have enough to eat and hunt....

Going omnivore will not allow you to hunt down and kill all of them!

Again - wait until you see the end of the line. OMNIVORE isnt the ultimate skill.

I am willing to bet (VPs?) that your other idea for safety can be overcome too.

Ok, you wanted it, so I will share it. One word: SWIM :roll:

I am trying to identify current problems. I will not offer solutions until you agree that they are problems (if I do, I am wasting my time!). For example, if you agree that the omnivore ability is far too powerful early on, then I will try to think of ways to change that. I will not spend time thinking of solutions when you deny that there is a problem!

Sounding like Nick more and more..... uhhhhh !

Well Im here to discuss things, but try to tone down a bit. If OMNIVORE is really an unsurmountable obstacle early on we will increase its price to say 90 or 100. More skills are in the pipeline that will allow different strategies, even early on. And dont judge too early, again you havent uncovered all aspects of the game.

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Post by Dameon » Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:58 pm

Like Smashie, I am near the top of the score and I am still a herbivore as well. So, "ganging up" on the hiscore leaders isn't really a very viable topic, as at least two of us are herbivores still. If I were a betting man I would say my place near the top of the score chart has to do with my focus on keeping a high instinct, much higher than the average, since it seems to be very equivalent to EFF in WOK which plays a huge role in calculating scores.

I will say that you are making it very difficult to try and come up with problems when the dev team refuses to share the manual, for reasons I don't completely understand. I know that we are in beta testing still, but it would be easier for us to understand the game if we knew the rules. I'm not quite sure what all the secrecy is about.

And personally, given the choice between omnivore and swim, omnivore is a blindingly obvious choice since they cost the same, no? Swim only works on water squares anyway, while omnivore works on any species you can find. A much better choice, clearly; I would make swim a good deal less expensive to help balance that.

And Al it was nice of you to compliment TK like that.

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Post by gm_al » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:16 pm

If we would share the manual it wouldnt be half as much fun to discover and communicate everything....

The trend from beta is clear to me: add new skills, and decrease the costs of existing ones to make them an attractive alternative to mutations. Omnivore may get a little more expensive regarding that you all think its the uber-power. :roll:

Hiscore formula will see some modifications so that instinct doesnt get too important.

PS: last words from me before I break down - the "law of the jungle" says that many species have to die along the way to final glory... and no, I will not make it too easy for you to get there. :twisted:

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Post by Egbert » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:41 pm

............and please, speed up the game! :sleeping:
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Post by ThinKing » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:34 am

gm_al wrote:How do you know ?? You cant if you didnt reaad the manual the devs have (and are not allowed to share I might add) Maybe you are talking about something different then I am ? OMNIVORE is not the end, you know....


Right. You made me say it. CARNIVORE. NOW do you believe that I am in a position to judge??


gm_al wrote:
Nothing at all, in principle. But if the best strategy is to sit in 1-2 squares and eat plants for the entire game, it will become a very boring game.

Cmon TK, you can do better then that. Thats a pretty stoopid assumption, isnt it ? I doubt you can sit in 1-2 squares for 4000 Turns and have enough to eat and hunt....


But Al, you CAN! The growth rates are so HUGE that you can!! You think I am wrong? What does a white forest contain after 2 turns of unharmed growth??


gm_al wrote:Again - wait until you see the end of the line. OMNIVORE isnt the ultimate skill.


I know this. See above.

gm_al wrote:Ok, you wanted it, so I will share it. One word: SWIM :roll:


And that will only work if you are next to water (with a size 1 plant). And how long can you stay in one water square until you need to leave??

Not long.



gm_al wrote:Well Im here to discuss things, but try to tone down a bit. If OMNIVORE is really an unsurmountable obstacle early on we will increase its price to say 90 or 100. More skills are in the pipeline that will allow different strategies, even early on. And dont judge too early, again you havent uncovered all aspects of the game.


Increasing the price of OMNIVORE will not change things. It will just make everyone pay more! At the moment, everyone HAS to go for omnivore. Perhaps if there was some form of defence without it, that wouldnt be the case....

For example, if you could attack people, but get no nutrition from it. There, I offered a solution. :wink:

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Post by korexus » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:47 am

gone wrote:
gm_al wrote:
Nothing at all, in principle. But if the best strategy is to sit in 1-2 squares and eat plants for the entire game, it will become a very boring game.

Cmon TK, you can do better then that. Thats a pretty stoopid assumption, isnt it ? I doubt you can sit in 1-2 squares for 4000 Turns and have enough to eat and hunt....


But Al, you CAN! The growth rates are so HUGE that you can!!

This is assuming that no one else comes along to hunt in your square. With only two squares per species this is not so likely...



gone wrote:
gm_al wrote:Ok, you wanted it, so I will share it. One word: SWIM :roll:


And that will only work if you are next to water (with a size 1 plant). And how long can you stay in one water square until you need to leave??

Not long.


But you can stay in one square elsewhere? That doesn't make sense. Why is water necessarily worse than another square, apart from the issues with preffered terrain.

gone wrote:
gm_al wrote:Well Im here to discuss things, but try to tone down a bit. If OMNIVORE is really an unsurmountable obstacle early on we will increase its price to say 90 or 100. More skills are in the pipeline that will allow different strategies, even early on. And dont judge too early, again you havent uncovered all aspects of the game.


Increasing the price of OMNIVORE will not change things. It will just make everyone pay more! At the moment, everyone HAS to go for omnivore. Perhaps if there was some form of defence without it, that wouldnt be the case....


But if it takes longer to get there then going for it right away is less viable. You're starting saturation won't last forever you know...

gone wrote:For example, if you could attack people, but get no nutrition from it. There, I offered a solution. :wink:


I get the feeling that a lot of people would like something like this...


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Post by Dameon » Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:17 am

Well, I like what Al is saying. I think decreasing the cost of non-omnivore skills, and adding more, is definetely a good step. I don't necessarily think that omnivore needs to be reduced in cost, however, I do believe that as TK says if your species is being hunted they should be able to retaliate and kill some of the attackers even if they aren't omnivores- it doesn't mean they'd have to eat them, you know? That only makes sense, otherwise omnivore becomes a mandatory skill as TK correctly points out. Then, omnivores and carnivores can simply be a skill which allows players to get nutrition from killing other species, which would make a lot of sense.

About eating, yes, by the numbers you could sit in two squares and not have any motivation to move. However, that assumed that nobody else moves in, as Korexus says. There are going to be more aggressive players hunting passive ones down, so I don't see that it is a viable strategy necessarily.
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Post by Mullog » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:32 am

Gone wrote:But Al, you CAN! The growth rates are so HUGE that you can!! You think I am wrong? What does a white forest contain after 2 turns of unharmed growth??


I agree with you here. It is too easy to get enough food, at least this early in the game. My species is starting to starve now, but that is because I have ignored hunting most of the time. For the next beta (coming soon I guess), this should be changed somewhat.

Gone wrote:
gm_al wrote:Ok, you wanted it, so I will share it. One word: SWIM :roll:


And that will only work if you are next to water (with a size 1 plant). And how long can you stay in one water square until you need to leave??

Not long.


Not one water square, but what if there is an ocean on the map? Then you might live happily for a long time (at least one day, maybe two) before the seas get invaded by omni(crani)vorous swimmers.



Gone wrote:
gm_al wrote:Well Im here to discuss things, but try to tone down a bit. If OMNIVORE is really an unsurmountable obstacle early on we will increase its price to say 90 or 100. More skills are in the pipeline that will allow different strategies, even early on. And dont judge too early, again you havent uncovered all aspects of the game.


Increasing the price of OMNIVORE will not change things. It will just make everyone pay more! At the moment, everyone HAS to go for omnivore. Perhaps if there was some form of defence without it, that wouldnt be the case....


I have not bought omnivore yet, and I am still doing quite ok. The plants are still plentiful and if someone attacks me I will run away (keeping some banked turns just in case). Instead of buying the omnivore skill I am going for mutations. If I can increase my PDef somewhat, I will stand a good chance against any carnivore on the map. While they have spent all their points on skills I will have spent points on becoming smart and fast (hopefully... right now I am fat and slow...).

Gone wrote:For example, if you could attack people, but get no nutrition from it. There, I offered a solution. :wink:


This is something we really need to consider! We could possibly let the attacked species fight back. But then we would have to increase the benefits from hunting species somehow.

Keep on suggesting! That is the only way we can improve the game!



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Post by gm_al » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:04 am

So it seems I need to share a few facts with you guys....

* plant growth: possibly too fast with 2 cycles a day right now (and only 30 active species) In the original design we had 250 plants per square, but then Rune and GH insisted that this needed an increase to 1000. Now I believe cutting on the initial number would be good enough, say maybe 500 or 750

* attacking without gaining nutrition from it: well we have that - simple fact: BIGGER BODYSIZE DOESNT GIVE NUTRITION

Let me also make a few things clear:
- CARNIVORE means a dedicated hunter. It also means (as you can probably imagine) higher nutrition output from your foes
- we will NOT have an attack system where you lose own specimens when attacking. We can increase the abilities so that a species has better way to defend itself (or react to attacks), but I will not go with a system where the attacker loses when doing a HUNT. This is not in the game concept.

So my plans are:
- new skills, and make existing ones cheaper
- possibly reduce initial plants in squares (but keep growth rate)
- possibly increase cost of OMNIVORE, but keep/reduce CARNIVORE costs (putting OMNIVORE at 90 would be enough to make a BS#2 mutation cheaper then it)
- possibly take away or tone down the prerequisites to the "FLEE" behaviour option to allow Players to flee right away when being attacked

Just keep in mind we dont want to make it too easy for the players, dont we....

I suggest some full re-start of the beta anytime soon. We have new cycles and new values to test. Who is with me on this ?

PS: costs to buy 1% fertility have been incresed to 3 Turns. We didnt want to double it to 4 Turns as we look to keep fertility as an attractive option.

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Post by Saladin » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:37 am

gm_al wrote:- we will NOT have an attack system where you lose own specimens when attacking. We can increase the abilities so that a species has better way to defend itself (or react to attacks), but I will not go with a system where the attacker loses when doing a HUNT. This is not in the game concept.


This doesn't make sense at all! I thought this would be in part a simulation of real life evolution and in real life if a fox attacks a donkey it will get it's ass kicked. Attacking without any retaliation is so unrealistic.
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Post by gm_al » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:14 am

Who said you couldnt retaliate ? The difference is just that it is YOU who needs to trigger the counter-attack....

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Post by ThinKing » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:38 am

Saladin wrote:...if a fox attacks a donkey it will get it's ass kicked.



Ho ho ho.

Very clever. :wink:


I have to agree though. We all need to sleep sometimes, and when we do, our species is EXTREMELY vulnerable. They lose instinct very quickly, and then when someone attacks they just sit there and die. :(

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Post by gm_al » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:45 am

Simply not true. Wait until we get to the mid-game and speak again then.

And stop making wrong assumptions without having the full picture, it just annoys me. :roll:

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Post by ThinKing » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:58 am

gm_al wrote:And stop making wrong assumptions without having the full picture, it just annoys me. :roll:



Give us the full picture then!! :roll:

How can we make "correct" judgements based on things we are not allowed to know??!?

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Post by Saladin » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:00 am

Gone wrote:
gm_al wrote:And stop making wrong assumptions without having the full picture, it just annoys me. :roll:



Give us the full picture then!! :roll:

How can we make "correct" judgements based on things we are not allowed to know??!?


Darn it Al! You're making me agree with TK all the time!

The only thing we have are assumptions, so we react on assumptions. So either give us the full pictures or listen to us whine. :P
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Post by Underdog » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:11 am

Al, I think this is what TK is trying to say:

With 48 turns per cycle you CANNOT mutate on the first cycle.

Now some player CAN become omnivore after turn 80 and have your species killed off before turn 96 happens. Now you will be dead and never had the chance to even start to grow at all. something needs to be done about this.
My personal preference would be to make a species have some kind of brain power or body size before they can become omnivore.

Any game like this is going to take at least a few days to let people develope enough to have much of a difference in their species and by making the omnivore skill so cheap it allows players to devastate their neighbors before they even get started.

And no I am not omnivore yet either and I was near the top of the score chart also. I think that is because my neighbors are playing nice. Thanx Al and Fredo.
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Post by Underdog » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:17 am

gm_al wrote:Simply not true. Wait until we get to the mid-game and speak again then.

And stop making wrong assumptions without having the full picture, it just annoys me. :roll:


I LIKE this:

He puts up the questions asking for our input then complains about us not knowing the rules and making assumptions when he refuses to let us know the rules.
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Post by ThinKing » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:26 am

Underdog wrote:My personal preference would be to make a species have some kind of brain power or body size before they can become omnivore.



Give that man a coconut!

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