Coming up: Smart AOFs, WOK-ON defaults and Themed WOK

[Saladin]

Hey, if you all can live with a set of updated WOK4 tweaks and dont look back to the old ones... fine with me ! I just wanted to avoid the "I want my old WOK4 back" threads. If you want rule changes and missile aiming - ok too, but I doubt everyone will agree there. It also means we have to add a parameter for what to target with your missiles for example. And it means breaking with the old WOK4 we had until now for good, be prepared.

Lets start to file some suggestions - plz refer to their number when posting:

#1: Workers on +LVL should add +0.003 instead of +0.005 as it is now

Sounds good to me.

#2: the level bonus for fights should in return be increased to (0.005 x rounds of fight) instead of (0.003 x rounds of fight)

Maybe increase it even more...fighting should seriously be rewarded.

#3: trade 350 TECH to get +0.6 DEF in all Provs (same) and +0.750 level for your armies (up from 0.500)

Don't like this one. It takes 3 turn with 125 wok to get this. With leveling it takes 2 turns and then you don't get the def increase. More importantly is the extra attacks you get from having lots of tech so i think this one is a bit too strong now. Maybe make it 0.600 level and +0.75 DEF?

#4: missilie aiming can stay EFF for short range and 3/4 EFF for long range, with some modifiers:
- DEF = same
- POP = -10%
- SPY = -15%
- WOK = -20%
- MIS = -25%
- ARM = -30%
Modifiers are deducted from current EFF right away ("hard" modifiers), and long range is then 3/4 of that number.

I really don't like to see the missiles being changed. If they are changed at all it would be to decrease their effectiveness as i think missiles are way to effective right now.

Code: Select all

#5: sabotage can also have short and long range, with EFF and 3/4 EFF (same as for missiles, but no modifiers) Every spy used should either kill 6 missiles / destroy 0.1 DEF / steal 20 POP when successful
#6: spy full player data could treat EVERY province separately, with again EFF or 3/4 EFF chance to reveal the Prov data. This way a player will rarely get FULL data but rather see many/most Provinces if risking this operation (action must still be taken into a neighboring Prov to be triggered, just like we have it now). Chance could be 1/2 EFF + 2% per spy used (again, separately for every Province). That should make Nick happy after all those years !  :roll:

I like the saboatage changes and also like the spy player changes as well.

#7: to make the Aim DEF suitable again change the number of workers needed to 6 (from 8 now) to produce 0.1 DEF. Neutral Provs then start with 12 workers, player ones with 18. There would be no DEF bonus change needed for PDEF calculation then too.

Why not just increase the amount of DEF you get? I don't like the idea of lowering the amount of workers. So you why not give +0.13 DEF for every 8 wok?

FIRE OFF !

Thanks for all the suggestions Al!

[korexus]

Ok, so the only contentious issues seem to be missiles and DEF workers.

First off, the DEF. 0.1 is a good basic unit for X workers to build, it's nice and easy for a player to calculate how much will be made. 0.13, 0.756, Pi/10, etc are not good basic amounts, espeacially if missiles and spies are taking off 0.1 at a time...

As for missiles, don't look too hard, but they actually have been powered down under Al's suggestion. Currently, 99 missiles with an EFF of 99 close range will have ~98 hits with ~25 of them hitting armies, killing an average of 75 armies as well as a bunch of DEF, SPY and TEC.
With the new suggestion, the same missiles aimed at armies will get ~68 hits each killing one army. That's only an average reduction of 7 armies, but with no other kills at the same time... If a players EFF is below 99 then the difference will only get bigger!

Just something for you all to chew on...

Chris.

[Saladin]

Looking at the suggested changes for the missiles again i like it even less!

Personally i never use missiles to having them become far weaker is just fine with me. However only being able to hit 1 army with 1 missile? I quite liked the fact that a missiles could hit multiple armies if they were stupid enough to all stand together.

My suggestion would be to leave the missiles system as it is now, but only have a small reduction in the effective %.

[Donut]

I agree with Sal. I'm against changing the missile system drastically. Like Sal said... if a player is dumb enough to leave a large group of armies in range of missiles... it's part of the game. If it is to be changed, I definitely would be against aiming at a specific thing. Missiles the way they are... require some luck, but you can still assume to hit about 35 armies with 50 missiles. Of course theres extremes both ways on this number, but there always will be in almost everything in the game. It is still based on a 'Dice Roll'.

Also with the spy player, I think that the spy player should remain spy player. Again just reduce the chances of it succeeding. It should require 1.5 times the number of provinces in spies for it to succeed. I don't think 10 spies is a lot to use on a spy player option if it is going to ensure success.

Donut

[Saladin]

Well compared to how it is now 10 spies is a LOT.

I always only use 1 spy and get the player data most of the time so adding the extra spies as it is now is mainly a waste of good spies.

[Dameon]

I still agree with Donut that more spies have to be used for a spy full player data option. Al, I am not entirely sure what your method is proposing? Under the example you gave above, that means if a player does a full player data spy he would get about 2/3 of the data. OK, I understand that, but how then do you handle EFF gain/loss? Is the overall attack considered a success if more than half of the provinces are spied out, and thus subject to EFF gain? And is considered a failure if less than half get spied out, meaning the player loses EFF afterwards? I just don't understand.

I think sending one spy in and getting another player's full data is pretty ridiculous, frankly. I really believe that there should be a minimum requirement for how many spies it takes. I think 1.5 spies per province is high, but I think 1 spy per province is reasonable. I don't think we should mess with the mechanics and make the full player data spy turn out to be like half of the provines or 2/3, with the EFF issues it might bring it could get complicated. I think the penalty associated with failing a player spy is fine now, but I think that players should need to take a bigger risk to try to get their opponent's full data. After all, if I have 90% EFF at the beginning of the round and attempt three full player spies in one turn, there's a pretty good chance one of them will succeed, and it only cost me 3 spies to try it. If players have to use more spies in addition to having the failure penalty as it is now, then I think they'd think twice about it. It really does make the most logical sense, I think.

As for the missiles, yes, it may make them a wee bit less powerful, but at least you are drastically reducing the amount of luck. I have been in cases where I lost a game simply because my missiles did not hit any armies. I threw 25 missiles in a Champs game once, and hit zero armies. The same thing happened to me again two turns later. That's when I stopped playing WOK 4, I'll tell you that. At least if I could control where the missiles were aimed I am basically ensuring that I am going to take out SOME armies. I'd take that over trusting luck anyday, but then I doubt that's a surprise to anybody.

[korexus]

The problem with missiles as the stand is that they require three dice rolls, one to hit, one to see what you hit and one to see how many you hit. This set up increases the variances hugely, making those extreme results more likely to come up.

I think it's clear that we can't get rid of the first roll, as hitting should always be random. If people don't want to lose the second roll in a set up like Al suggested, then it may be worth getting rid of the third one and making every hit kill a fixed amount. (0.1 for DEF, 3 for armies and spies, 9 for TECH would keep the averages at the same level as now). This would make missiles more reliable as there would be less chance of not wiping out many armies, but also remove the 'luck' factor of always getting a 5 when you hit armies. In one step we make missiles look better to people who would use them but don't because they can't take the risk and worse to people who complain about lucky rolls killing all their armies!

As for spy player data, I like the idea of linking provinces to number of spies somehow. Sal's right about extra spies under the current set up, why get another 1% chance of success by sending two spies, when you could send that spy on the next order to get another 50% shot? If we do go with each spy sends info about one random province, should it be with replacement (you can never guarentee getting all the information, so send as many spies as possible to get the best chance) or without (sending as many spies as the player has provinces will give you the full data) The first has more of a luck element, the second is more powerful. As we hate both of those things at the minute I'munsure which to go for!



Chris.

[Donut]

Dameon's got it... sorda I don't think 10 spies for a player with 10 provinces full data is too expensive. You yourself said that you should have to work for intel. Now... say I send 10(or 15 or whatever we decide) spies at a player; what is the chance of success? Maybe 3/4*EFF + 1(or 2)*Extra spies - 5*opponents spies? (Like how I threw that opponents spies in there? I think placing spies in a province should help detere spying, but that's another story). You should have the option to send extra spies to help your chances. That would mean that 10 spies + 10 extra spies would give you about a 95% chance of getting the data. 20 spies is a lot... but I think it's a pretty fair trade.

For the missiles... I think fixing the numbers for the missiles hit is a pretty good idea. I'm am a fan of the chance in the game, but to make them set on a value would help. You'll still have the chance of sending 25 missiles and hitting all TECH, but that's the same idea behind sending 20 GCA's and a troop and still maybe not hitting any. There is still a lot of chance involved in WOK; but if you understand it, you can play for it.

[Saladin]

The problem with missiles as the stand is that they require three dice rolls, one to hit, one to see what you hit and one to see how many you hit. This set up increases the variances hugely, making those extreme results more likely to come up.

I think it's clear that we can't get rid of the first roll, as hitting should always be random. If people don't want to lose the second roll in a set up like Al suggested, then it may be worth getting rid of the third one and making every hit kill a fixed amount. (0.1 for DEF, 3 for armies and spies, 9 for TECH would keep the averages at the same level as now). This would make missiles more reliable as there would be less chance of not wiping out many armies, but also remove the 'luck' factor of always getting a 5 when you hit armies. In one step we make missiles look better to people who would use them but don't because they can't take the risk and worse to people who complain about lucky rolls killing all their armies!

I totally disagree. Getting a set amount of hits is just AWFUL. To me that would really ruin it. Nothing wrong with a bit of luck. Sometimes your lucky sometimes you're not. It goes both ways. I would hate for you to change this. Just ignore my previous posts, keep missiles exactly as they are now because all other solutions i've heard are simply awful.

As for spy player data, I like the idea of linking provinces to number of spies somehow. Sal's right about extra spies under the current set up, why get another 1% chance of success by sending two spies, when you could send that spy on the next order to get another 50% shot? If we do go with each spy sends info about one random province, should it be with replacement (you can never guarentee getting all the information, so send as many spies as possible to get the best chance) or without (sending as many spies as the player has provinces will give you the full data) The first has more of a luck element, the second is more powerful. As we hate both of those things at the minute I'munsure which to go for!

Ok what about this.
first it gets decided if the spy player happens or not. If so you automatically get half the players spy data (rounded up or down doesn't matter). Any additional spies give you an extra province.

So if the other player has 12 provinces and your spy player works you would get to see six provinces for sure. If you want to see all provinces you would have to add extra spies. So in this case 7 in total.

[Saladin]

As for the missiles, yes, it may make them a wee bit less powerful, but at least you are drastically reducing the amount of luck. I have been in cases where I lost a game simply because my missiles did not hit any armies. I threw 25 missiles in a Champs game once, and hit zero armies. The same thing happened to me again two turns later. That's when I stopped playing WOK 4, I'll tell you that. At least if I could control where the missiles were aimed I am basically ensuring that I am going to take out SOME armies. I'd take that over trusting luck anyday, but then I doubt that's a surprise to anybody.

You lost the champs simply because 50 missiles didn't hit any armies? Doesn't sound like a very good strategy plan to me.

[Saladin]

BTW one question for Al.

Is the number of armies hit with a missile completely random? So the same chance to hit 1, ,2, 3, 4, or 5 armies?

[korexus]

Sal, The chance of hitting each number is supposedly even for armies (and spy and tech) however, due to QBasic being a little bit *not great* at random numbers, there is a small tendency to the extremes, although you only really see this when firing a lot of missiles...

You say that you don't like any of the ideas suggested. I personally think that missiles should be reviewed in WoK IV and that this is a perfect opportunity to do so. Do you have ideas as to what would work? Don't worry if they sound hard to put into practice. If the community can agree on something, I'm willing to write it into the code. - I need so something to distract me from real work!!!

Oh and the luck would still be there aplenty if each missile hit a same amount. You still have a random number of missiles hitting, followed by a random number of those killing any specific unit


Chris

[Dameon]

Look, Sal, I know you are a fan of the luck factor, but missiles are just TOO unpredictable. There's a lot of things in WOK 4 that require luck, but none besides missiles and full player data that could basically destroy your chances in a game. As Chris said, one problem is that there are three rolls for every missile that hits, that's why we get extreme results with those that can literally decide a game.

I still think missiles should be changed so they are aimable, but failing in that, there should certainly be a set amount to what every missile kills. We have to reduce the number of rolls by one somehow. I really don't see what's wrong with aiming missiles, all you are doing is taking away luck. I know some people don't mind luck, but the only downside of lessening the amount is less skilled players won't win as often, and frankly that's life in Kaomaris.

As for the spy player data, I am still convinced the way to fix it is to require more spies to try it. How the EFF of a successful attempt is calculated isn't all that big of a deal, I think it could stay the same as it is now and be fine. The bottom line is that it would require more spies and preparation to attempt, and a player isn't going to get 5 chances at 40-50% to get somebody's full data unless they are really dedicated to that.

[phred]

I really don't see what's wrong with aiming missiles, all you are doing is taking away luck.

I'm not sure if missiles were "aimable" back in the days that WOK is set in. Even if someone from miles away could see an army or some population or a heap of workers, there's no guarantee you can hit the dangnabbit things.

[gm_al]

Hi,

the lobby is making good progress and soon more test games will flood the server. To ensure that WOK-ON sets the new standard comes 2005 we have decided to push the following changes with the next games:

#1: Workers on +LVL add +0.003 instead of +0.005 as it is now
#2: the level bonus for fights is increased to (0.006 x rounds of fight) instead of (0.003 x rounds of fight)
#3: missilie aiming is coming, with EFF chance for short range and 3/4 EFF for long range, and some modifiers:
- TECH = same (1 missile kills 3 TECH)
- POP = -10% (1 missile kills 4 POP)
- SPY = -15% (1 missile kills 1 spy)
- DEF = -20% (1 missile kills 0.1 DEF)
- WOK = -20% (1 missilie kills 2 WOK)
- MIS = -25% (1 missile kills 1 missile)
- ARM = -30% (1 missile kills 1 army)
Modifiers are deducted from current EFF right away and long range is then 3/4 of that number.
#4: sabotage is now considered a headhunting action and has short and long range ability, with EFF and 3/4 EFF chance (same as for missiles, but no modifiers) Every spy used either kills 4 missiles / destroys 0.1 DEF / steals 15 POP when successful
#5: SPY PLAYER option has a (EFF/2) + (2 * SPY) chance to succeed initially. Once the initial roll is successfull you get a (EFF/2) + (3 * SPY) roll for every target Prov individually, therefore results of this option will vary and also have better results the more spies you use on it.
#6: 8 workers will now produce +0.2 DEF instead of +0.1 DEF

Those changes are still open for discussion, but be ready to test them extensively in the near future !

[Egbert]

If you reduce the +LEV bonus, dramatically increase the attacking bonus, and dramatically reduce the chance of bombing armies, I think we will run into a potential "steamrolling" problem. A player can build a huge army, and then steamroll through everyone, gaining level on the way. No one can stop the player, since missiles won't be very effective.

I am not sure if the numbers proposed by Al (and others) would allow this to happen (I am not sure how extreme they are), but you should all keep this in mind as you tweak the system.

[TK]

#4: sabotage is now considered a headhunting action and has short and long range ability, with EFF and 3/4 EFF chance (same as for missiles, but no modifiers) Every spy used either kills 4 missiles / destroys 0.1 DEF / steals 15 POP when successful

WAY WAY WAY too powerful.

Reduce the chance of success to EFF-50 and you're looking good.

10 spies steal 150 POP??
10 spies sabotage 40 MIS!!??

Thats crazy talk.

[korexus]

I'd prefer to make things less powerful by bringing down the numbers, not the success rate.

If we have an operation with a relatively low chance of success but a big result if it succeeds then we get back to having too much luck in the game. EFF and 3/4 EFF seem fine for success as long as an individula spy can't do too much damage when he gets in.

One thing that Al forgot to mention. Sabotage MIS/DEF and steal POP will count as headhunting on turn 1 and so not be allowed as standard (although a GM can, of course, change that!)


korexus.

[gm_al]

#4: sabotage is now considered a headhunting action

So much about forgeting it, Chris

Agree we need to reduce the effect and not the probability to hit. Maybe something along "Every spy used either kills 2 missiles / destroys 0.1 DEF / steals 10 POP when successful" - at least keep stealing POP high to make it an interesting option.

[TK]

at least keep stealing POP high to make it an interesting option.

No, it will just make people transform their POP even faster than they do now!!